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Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

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Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#141

Post by aksss »

ethbr0 wrote: post #17
lscdlscd wrote: post #2

Just goes to show how effective unionizing is. Power to those workers! They're a key part in making Apple one of the most valuable companies in the world. They deserve a fair share.

Indeed. Companies hate unions because they increase labor costs and benefits. Does anyone really think corporate anti-union talking points are in their workers' best interest? Unions have their faults (e.g. bureaucracy), but corporations aren't fighting them for their employees' benefit.

> Unions have their faults (e.g. bureaucracy)

Corruption, protecting shit employees from being fired, seniority preference over merit, politics, wage caps for individual contributors (not just wage floors), dues, inefficient administrative overhead, to name a few others.

For a lot of workers, especially knowledge workers and pro services, the value proposition doesn’t make sense.

Companies fight unions for the efficiency of the machine, which may or may not benefit employees (depends on context, right?). Employees fight unions because the value prop looks like shit in many cases - at best a bargain with the devil - circumstances need to be pretty bad to make the deal, or the union needs to have captured the right to work (at company or industry) already.

I say all this as someone with a small union pension waiting for me and as someone who managed union employees. I’ve seen the good, the bad, and the ugly with unions.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#142

Post by synetic »

randomdata wrote: post #137
synetic wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that tax on capital refers to capital gains taxes.

That could be, but then how does that line up with labour? Labour is taxed on the productive output, just like the productive output of capital is taxed (at least in this country; I am not up on the US tax code). Capital gains is an additional tax placed on capital. There is no corresponding tax placed on labour.

If I make $1,000,000 profit from selling stock I pay much lower taxes than if I made $1,000,000 from selling my labor to a company.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#143

Post by randomdata »

synetic wrote: post #142
randomdata wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be, but then how does that line up with labour? Labour is taxed on the productive output, just like the productive output of capital is taxed (at least in this country; I am not up on the US tax code). Capital gains is an additional tax placed on capital. There is no corresponding tax placed on labour.

If I make $1,000,000 profit from selling stock I pay much lower taxes than if I made $1,000,000 from selling my labor to a company.

There is no productive output in the sale of stock, though. You are only moving capital around. Similarly, moving labour around carries no tax burden, leaving capital to be the one with the higher taxes.

If your capital holdings produced $1,000,000 in productive output, presumably in the US you would pay the same taxes as if you you made $1,000,000 selling your labour. That would be the case here.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#144

Post by linksnapzz »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #119
j16sdiz wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile in China, all union except the state-driven ones are illegal. Deng Xiaoping took away the right to go onstrike because "the communist party is owned by the worker and represents the best interest of the workers".

China has raised more people out of poverty faster than any other civilization in history.

Except the people who were killed while doing it; but the fewer poor people to raise,the easier it is...

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#145

Post by wjnc »

pierat wrote: post #129
wjnc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, following dangs guidelines and didn’t even register the not so subtle call for violence ;)

I was not calling for violence. But having companies continually violate the law, and having no real repurcussions does create a very BAD situation. People pushed into a corner react very badly. And perhaps companies can go back to WHY the NLRB was created, and what the before-times was like. I particularly don't want to go back to that. And you can be reminded with a history lesson and education, and not shooting up…

Okay, sorry again. It’s a nice conversational thread nevertheless. The interesting question is why the US followed a different trajectory irt unions than the rest of the west.

And the thing is that even people in dark corners usually don’t react darkly. That’s pretty much what saves civilization imho. That even the bottom 1% doesn’t go all out on the rest. People stand a lot of abuse and still keep their head up. I agree that workers right shouldn’t be an afterthought.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#146

Post by RobT7k »

mcpackieh wrote: post #73
brookside wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a place to go when one has a tech issue is a huge value addition for many Apple users. Repairs can be expensive (the solutions will lean towards "replace the entire motherboard"). But help at the genius bar from a real human can also be free. Compare this experience of what options one has if a hardware issue, or some software question, with a dell laptop. Availability of help at Apple stores is one reason I s…

Apple stores are a very substandard way of offering/providing support. Here is my real world example: I'm visiting my parents in suburban Pennsylvania when my laptop dies. I just looked up the nearest Apple Store, it's a 45 minute drive one-way, it would take an hour and a half in the car total just to get there, probably about $10 of gasoline too. Thankfully I had a Dell, so I called in the issue and later that day…

Soo, your dell laptop died, and you decided to checkout how far away an Apple Store was? That's a very odd thing to do.

Apple Stores aren't the only way that Apple offers support, it's one of many. Just because it didn't happen to be convenient for one of your scenarios doesn't mean it's not convenient for thousands of others.

Also, from what I can tell, Onsite warranty support is a paid upgrade for Dells, not a default. I could be wrong on that, though, haven't bought a dell in a while. Apple does also support onsite warranty support for some computers if you pay more as well. So I'm really not sure what the point of your comment is.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#147

Post by sidewndr46 »

smoldesu wrote: post #85
sidewndr46 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But wouldn't the precedent be "Apple won, unions lost"? No one would look at this and go "damn the union really handed Apple a can of whoop ass!"

The precedent is that the NLRB has issued a warning past this point. Apple can respond however they want, but this is their shot across the bow.

But to my knowledge an NLRB warning is no effect. It isn't like after the 3rd warning, Apple enters Chapter 7 bankruptcy automatically.

If I was Apple's legal counsel, I'd be telling them we won this round.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#148

Post by [deleted] »

aksss wrote: post #141
ethbr0 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Companies hate unions because they increase labor costs and benefits. Does anyone really think corporate anti-union talking points are in their workers' best interest? Unions have their faults (e.g. bureaucracy), but corporations aren't fighting them for their employees' benefit.

> Unions have their faults (e.g. bureaucracy) Corruption, protecting shit employees from being fired, seniority preference over merit, politics, wage caps for individual contributors (not just wage floors), dues, inefficient administrative overhead, to name a few others. For a lot of workers, especially knowledge workers and pro services, the value proposition doesn’t make sense. Companies fight unions for the effici…

[deleted]

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#149

Post by m463 »

antiutopian wrote: post #87

Once you start following/helping/participating in the labor movement it becomes clear that virtually every company will go to great lengths to stop a union from being formed and winning a contract, they will even break the law. The question for organizers is not "will this company do it?" but "what do we do about it when they do?"

I remember watching the walmart movie, and they had one part where walmart would not put security cameras in their parking lot. Robbery, rape and murder.

But one store did have cameras in the parking lot - for surveillance of employees trying to form a union.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#150

Post by colpabar »

myspy wrote: post #46
jvmfjvfjvf wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Walmart non union workers still have their jobs while the ones that did unionize all lost theirs.

Well, if the States allow such practices it's super sad. Nobody gets fired when joining a union in Germany.

Railroad workers can face _prison_ here if they strike and the government doesn't want them to.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-signs-bill-block-us-r...

> WASHINGTON, Dec 2 (Reuters) - President Joe Biden signed legislation Friday to block a national U.S. railroad strike that could have devastated the American economy.

And of course, it's all for our own good!

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