Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#141

Post by robertlagrant » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:02 PM UTC

ejstronge wrote: post #48

spangry wrote: post #21

> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…

[flagged]

I don't know enough about the subject, but I will say that arguing on the basis of the purported reasons for creating a movement is totally irrelevant to the movement's effects.

For example a white friend in South Africa has a daughter who years ago, when looking at university applications, was distraught because to study to be a doctor she had to hit over 90% in her exams, vs 70% for her black South African classmates. Does it matter to her that this wasn't meant to happen? Or is reality also worth talking about?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#142

Post by zozbot234 » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:03 PM UTC

catiopatio wrote: post #124

trenchgun wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prior to this, in the earlier internet age, you had to cut your teeth on IRC and forums. That was where technical people were in the computer tech space. > Do you know VIRULENTLY anti-black (or woman, or gay) these communities were? I can't begin to describe it. That is totally off-putting to someone who has the ability succeed but does not want to deal with the hate. Wow, thank you. Gives me a new perspective.

He’s completely, totally, and absolutely incorrect. I spent decades on IRC starting in the early 90s, and this is a politically-driven contemporary re-imagination of what existed at the time. We were open to all because we ourselves didn’t fit in elsewhere.

Some communities did have a lot of virulently racist and male-chauvinist trolling. The infamous 4chan forum culture didn't just spring up out of thin air, after all. It's a bit harder to tell whether that was anywhere close to representative, of course.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#143

Post by John23832 » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:03 PM UTC

catiopatio wrote: post #131

John23832 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about telling people your ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation, it's about WHAT IS SAID about your ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation. The beauty of the internet is anonymity (to a certain extent), but that doesn't mean that you can't see or hear things that exclude you.

We focused on technical discussions on technical channels. I’m sorry if you had a bad time on IRC, but as someone who cut their teeth on IRC in the early 90s, and got their career started through contacts made on IRC, what you describe couldn’t be further from the kind of technical communities I participated in.

Great, that's your experience. But I was sharing mine, and those of the other minorities I know very well.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#144

Post by gadders » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:03 PM UTC

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #30

tjpnz wrote: post #14

Tangential to the current discussion but why do I always sense a reluctance to include matters relating to social class in these programs? When I bring it up during D&I discussions I'll usually get blank stares, and in one instance there were crude comments made about needing to beef up building security first.

That's definitely true. As an example, if you're a low-class white male kid, you're actually quite disadvantaged compared to the general population (for example in educational outcomes). But the DEI initiatives in most companies won't recognize this, as they often don't look past skin color and gender.

I've started getting into socio-economic diversity, and having some success pushing it as a diversity characteristic at work. Whatever your other diversity characteristics are, coming from a lower socio-economic background just makes things harder.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#145

Post by jakelazaroff » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:03 PM UTC

catiopatio wrote: post #119

John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

Are you joking? We were absolutely not “virulently” anti- anyone on early IRC. We didn’t even have real names or photos. Nobody had any idea who was behind the keyboard, and that was okay.

Do you think it’s impossible to say something racist without specifically directing it at someone in the conversation?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#146

Post by Quarrelsome » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:03 PM UTC

aliqot wrote: post #112

John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

Growing up on IRC, I have very much the same experience as you but quite opposite as I experienced hardly any racism, and nobody knew my identity either. Nobody wanted to involve their personal lives or details until recently when identity and identifying became the thing.

I don't remember anyone trying to doxx anyone's race on freenode. Perhaps they're talking about USENET/IRC at large as opposed to the tech community which I believe were mostly on freenode (now libera).

Otherwise I can only assume that chats within all-chat appeared to be racist in nature but again, that's not something I've seen (especially unchallenged) in any of the freenode channels I frequented.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#147

Post by debacle » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:03 PM UTC

Firmwarrior wrote: post #107

xwowsersx wrote: post #39

Interestingly enough, Pew Research ran a study[0] a few years back which found that the majority of whites, blacks, and Hispanics reject race-conscious hiring—even if it results in less diversity. I can only imagine what it would feel like to be a PoC in a company that has openly stated that their goal is to achieve a certain racial/ethnic composition regardless of standards. How would I not always have a sneaking su…

As a Hispanic man, I can say that I don't care about whether I earned my spot or lucked into it through my ancestry. Life isn't fair, and I'll gladly take whatever advantages I can scrounge up. The software interview process in particular is already so capricious that I feel absolutely no shame in tilting it in my favor in any way that I can.

You shouldn't feel bad about leveraging a system to your advantage. Life is hard.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#148

Post by pessimizer » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:03 PM UTC

monero-xmr wrote: post #25

It boils down to a core philosophical difference - do you want to emphasize equal access to opportunity, or do you want to emphasize equal outcomes? Some would argue it isn't an either-or thing, and we can do both at once, but I argue mandated equality of outcomes is insidious and causes social strife. If you are a minority and get hired, and the company has an explicit policy of hiring N% of minorities, then you wil…

This isn't a discussion about banning racial preferences in hiring, or about the real racism being affirmative action.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#149

Post by gizmo » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:03 PM UTC

tjpnz wrote: post #14

Tangential to the current discussion but why do I always sense a reluctance to include matters relating to social class in these programs? When I bring it up during D&I discussions I'll usually get blank stares, and in one instance there were crude comments made about needing to beef up building security first.

Because DEI efforts come from the Ivies that are vestiges of class privilege. It's hard for people to recognize they can be oppressed as well as oppressor, privileged and disadvantaged at the same time. Even though this is the entire point of intersectionality, it's still hard to be self-aware.

The thought leaders of intersectionality, by virtue of their thought-leadership, have a privilege and a reach almost nobody else has. This does not discredit them, but it's awkward to acknowledge that those who preach about privilege are sometimes meaningfully more privileged than the people they preach to.

When people point out this privilege it looks like derailing from their perspective. Because when unprivileged people talk about oppression nobody pays attention to them, but when privileged people talk about it their privilege is then used to discredit their arguments. They can't win!

This exact effect poisons discussions about wealth inequality. When poor people talk about inequality they're ignored because they're sore losers. Rich people are ignored because they must be virtue-signaling hypocrites.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#150

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:03 PM UTC

catiopatio wrote: post #124

trenchgun wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prior to this, in the earlier internet age, you had to cut your teeth on IRC and forums. That was where technical people were in the computer tech space. > Do you know VIRULENTLY anti-black (or woman, or gay) these communities were? I can't begin to describe it. That is totally off-putting to someone who has the ability succeed but does not want to deal with the hate. Wow, thank you. Gives me a new perspective.

He’s completely, totally, and absolutely incorrect. I spent decades on IRC starting in the early 90s, and this is a politically-driven contemporary re-imagination of what existed at the time. We were open to all because we ourselves didn’t fit in elsewhere.

[deleted]