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Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

politico.eu

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Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#141

Post by capableweb »

traveler01 wrote: post #138

As a portuguese it blows my mind that "digital nomads" are choosing the country to live in. Surely the country has great weather, food and you get an hefty tax discount that the natives can only dream about (20% of income tax is wayyy lower than a living wage in this country pays). But if you investigated a bit more you would see that the emigration rates of the country are going through the roof. It should be a huge…

> Surely the country has great weather, food and you get an hefty tax discount

Sounds like you have it figured out why people are moving there :)

I think it's always hard for natives to figure out why people want to move to their country, where they see mostly problems and not how much better it is than where the people come from.

I'm an immigrant as well, and wouldn't understand why people would move to the country I was born in, but people who are from the place I currently live in feels the same way but vice-versa.

Good weather and good food is surprisingly convincing, at least for me, in deciding where to live.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#142

Post by baxtr »

traveler01 wrote: post #138

As a portuguese it blows my mind that "digital nomads" are choosing the country to live in. Surely the country has great weather, food and you get an hefty tax discount that the natives can only dream about (20% of income tax is wayyy lower than a living wage in this country pays). But if you investigated a bit more you would see that the emigration rates of the country are going through the roof. It should be a huge…

Please enlighten us. Why are 20% living abroad? What are they running from?

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#143

Post by louison11 »

csomar wrote: post #51
user_named wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.

There is bureaucracy and then there is bureaucracy. Here is an example: Malaysia and Indonesia. Each country has its own bureaucratic nightmares but you can make useful comparisons. Malaysia: Easy to get a phone number. Easy to get an internet hotspot to get data. Reliable internet. Internet is fully open (no censorship). Indonesia: Hard to get a phone number. Confusing choices and prices with Whatsapp/FB mingled in…

"some countries' issue is beyond bureaucracy, it's that the process is fundamentally broken and no one gives a shit." Haha. Love it. That sums up a lot of Portuguese administrations sadly.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#144

Post by traveler01 »

capableweb wrote: post #141
traveler01 wrote: post #138

As a portuguese it blows my mind that "digital nomads" are choosing the country to live in. Surely the country has great weather, food and you get an hefty tax discount that the natives can only dream about (20% of income tax is wayyy lower than a living wage in this country pays). But if you investigated a bit more you would see that the emigration rates of the country are going through the roof. It should be a huge…

> Surely the country has great weather, food and you get an hefty tax discount Sounds like you have it figured out why people are moving there :) I think it's always hard for natives to figure out why people want to move to their country, where they see mostly problems and not how much better it is than where the people come from. I'm an immigrant as well, and wouldn't understand why people would move to the country…

And if you come living here with a foreign wage, sure makes sense to me. But if you have a "native wage", it's a no go.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#145

Post by traveler01 »

baxtr wrote: post #142
traveler01 wrote: post #138

As a portuguese it blows my mind that "digital nomads" are choosing the country to live in. Surely the country has great weather, food and you get an hefty tax discount that the natives can only dream about (20% of income tax is wayyy lower than a living wage in this country pays). But if you investigated a bit more you would see that the emigration rates of the country are going through the roof. It should be a huge…

Please enlighten us. Why are 20% living abroad? What are they running from?

Wages are very low considering the cost of life here. Rents in the main cities of the country are going through the roof and there's little to no choice (if you're a digital nomad you can always choose to live in other areas, since it's clear you don't need to live close to where you work, but the issue there isn't much better).

About 26% people are living abroad (emigrated) and many of the ones who are staying in the country end up working for portuguese companies who mostly also work abroad.

So, if those people fled a country with such great good, weather and specially their families, it should ring some red flags no?

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#146

Post by capableweb »

traveler01 wrote: post #144
capableweb wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely the country has great weather, food and you get an hefty tax discount Sounds like you have it figured out why people are moving there :) I think it's always hard for natives to figure out why people want to move to their country, where they see mostly problems and not how much better it is than where the people come from. I'm an immigrant as well, and wouldn't understand why people would move to the country…

And if you come living here with a foreign wage, sure makes sense to me. But if you have a "native wage", it's a no go.

Even with a salary from a Portuguese company, the cost of living is relatively low (compared to other South/Western European countries, and not including Lisbon obviously as it's a outlier [like all metropolitan areas]) so makes sense even with a "native wage". Especially if you work in the IT industry.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#147

Post by traveler01 »

capableweb wrote: post #146
traveler01 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you come living here with a foreign wage, sure makes sense to me. But if you have a "native wage", it's a no go.

Even with a salary from a Portuguese company, the cost of living is relatively low (compared to other South/Western European countries, and not including Lisbon obviously as it's a outlier [like all metropolitan areas]) so makes sense even with a "native wage". Especially if you work in the IT industry.

The cost of living is not low at all. Don't know where you got that idea from.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#148

Post by capableweb »

traveler01 wrote: post #147
capableweb wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with a salary from a Portuguese company, the cost of living is relatively low (compared to other South/Western European countries, and not including Lisbon obviously as it's a outlier [like all metropolitan areas]) so makes sense even with a "native wage". Especially if you work in the IT industry.

The cost of living is not low at all. Don't know where you got that idea from.

Of course it depends on what you compare it to. But compared to its South-Western European sisters, it is quite low. Mainly getting it from living in a bunch of European countries (including Portugal, and others outside of Europe, but not as relevant).

Besides Lisbon (and probably Porto nowadays), it's hard to find a place with good weather, good food and low cost of living compared to Portugal. Or maybe you have some counter-examples you care to show me?

In order to add some facts to the discussion, here are two links showing some comparison between cost of living in different countries in Europe:

- https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/cost_of_living_wb/...

- https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#149

Post by bwb »

louison11 wrote: post #137
bwb wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To note, this isn't always true. My family moved to Portugal in late 2020. Covid played havoc as they had to find ways to digitalize many things their offices were doing. It took my wife 9 months to get her DL exchanged and me 11 months. During that time, you are not driving illegally; you are driving from your foreign license. As long as you have the paper with the exchange info and a picture, you will be fine. It a…

Hey neighbor! So glad it was faster for you. My experience is that these things vary greatly based on where you apply, and pure luck. I know people in the Algarve who have been waiting for 3 years. And people who applied in Lisbon and got it like you within 1 year.

Ah good point, I know our person who helped us had some good tricks like using offices not in Lisbon which were busier. We live up North so it was all very easy.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#150

Post by user_named »

louison11 wrote: post #136
user_named wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Takes 18 months to get permission for your foreign spouse to move to Sweden. It then takes 12-18 months to get into the social system - you register quickly, but for the bureaucracy to actually add you into the system takes that long. So no, you're wrong. Portugal is not different.

It's not really the delays that make Portugal different, arguably most countries have long delays, it's the lack of reliability, transparency, and responsiveness. I don't know Sweden. But we're a family of expats with multiple citizenships, so I deal with bureaucracy in 4 countries on 3 continents. Most countries have streamlined procedures, provide tracking numbers, addresses to send things in, phone lines... So it'…

You don't understand. It's not about Sweden, Germany, Portugal. As an expat you always deal with this. Indians waiting for green card lottery and then another 100 years? But I'm sure you will come up with a reason why that's different. You need to take a step back and become aware of yourself.
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