Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#141

Post by drinkzima » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

henryfjordan wrote: post #97

overlordalex wrote: post #13

To maybe throw the question back - what have you done to make 3 day weekends a reality? The way the post is worded right now seems to be phrased in a way that 3-day weekends are blindingly obvious, but if you look at the history of labour rights I dont see why anyone expects it to just happen without a massive amount of organising

Productivity has risen 61% since 1979: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ . 40 hour work weeks have been the standard. Wages only rose 17% in that same period. The capitalists have been able to bank the other 44%. A 3-day work week (aka 40% less productivity if you assume a perfectly linear relationship between time working and productivity) would still mean a nice little gain for the capitalist compared to 19…

We have metrics for these things ("Capitalists are taking a larger and larger share every year"), no need for hyperbole: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1Pik

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#142

Post by ghaff » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

somenewaccount1 wrote: post #94

If you can't develop a business that sustains itself with 4-day work weeks, why are you expecting anyone else to? From what I understand though, some companies are indeed trying 4-day work weeks.

I've also seen a general shift away from meetings on Fridays for example. Combined with WFH, there is probably some percentage of people (in the more privileged worker class) who, even if they aren't taking Fridays off, are sliding into the weekends.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#143

Post by drinkzima » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

_yb2s wrote: post #116

henryfjordan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Productivity has risen 61% since 1979: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ . 40 hour work weeks have been the standard. Wages only rose 17% in that same period. The capitalists have been able to bank the other 44%. A 3-day work week (aka 40% less productivity if you assume a perfectly linear relationship between time working and productivity) would still mean a nice little gain for the capitalist compared to 19…

> Capitalists are taking a larger and larger share every year. Is that ethical? How is this possible? Wouldn't capitalists willing to take a smaller share (higher wages, better product for lower price) out-compete those that don't? It seems to me that the major advantage of capitalism is protection from this type of situation?

It's mostly false: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1Pik

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#144

Post by bowsamic » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

throwayyy479087 wrote: post #102

henryfjordan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Productivity has risen 61% since 1979: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ . 40 hour work weeks have been the standard. Wages only rose 17% in that same period. The capitalists have been able to bank the other 44%. A 3-day work week (aka 40% less productivity if you assume a perfectly linear relationship between time working and productivity) would still mean a nice little gain for the capitalist compared to 19…

The difference between producitivity and wage gap is fully explained by increasing healthcare costs: https://www.ajmc.com/view/healthcare-costs-increased-twice-a...

That would be very convenient for capitalists but it is false, though even if it were true for the US it is not true for European countries

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#145

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 7:44 PM UTC

henryfjordan wrote: post #97

overlordalex wrote: post #13

To maybe throw the question back - what have you done to make 3 day weekends a reality? The way the post is worded right now seems to be phrased in a way that 3-day weekends are blindingly obvious, but if you look at the history of labour rights I dont see why anyone expects it to just happen without a massive amount of organising

Productivity has risen 61% since 1979: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ . 40 hour work weeks have been the standard. Wages only rose 17% in that same period. The capitalists have been able to bank the other 44%. A 3-day work week (aka 40% less productivity if you assume a perfectly linear relationship between time working and productivity) would still mean a nice little gain for the capitalist compared to 19…

Why should you need to revolt or organize to get what you've already worked for?

Because you won't get it otherwise. They're not going to give it back or forgo it in future because controlling a greater share of resources gives them more leverage.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#146

Post by slively » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 7:44 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #70

slively wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attributing the 5 day work week to Henry Ford is not placing the credit correctly. He may have been the first big CEO, but it was the work of labor rights activists and unions. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/sep/09/viral-imag...

The trade unionists had been pushing for eight-hour days, not five-day weeks. The thing Ford did largely unprompted was switch from six days to five days. Even your own link seems to confuse the two, but is focused on the eight-hour day part of the original false image.

> Ford’s initiative was not widely copied overnight. In 1916, the federal government passed an act to require an eight-hour day and overtime pay for railroad workers, but most workers still didn’t have those protections, and working hours remained a hotly contested issue. "Demands for the five-day week began to proliferate in 1919, a year in which 4 million American workers went out on strike,"

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#147

Post by slively » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 7:45 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #73

slively wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attributing the 5 day work week to Henry Ford is not placing the credit correctly. He may have been the first big CEO, but it was the work of labor rights activists and unions. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/sep/09/viral-imag...

The trade unionists had been pushing for eight-hour days, not five-day weeks. The thing Ford did largely unprompted was switch from six days to five days. Even your own link seems to confuse the two, but is focused on the eight-hour day part of the original false image.

> Ford’s initiative was not widely copied overnight. In 1916, the federal government passed an act to require an eight-hour day and overtime pay for railroad workers, but most workers still didn’t have those protections, and working hours remained a hotly contested issue. "Demands for the five-day week began to proliferate in 1919, a year in which 4 million American workers went out on strike,"

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#148

Post by bowsamic » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 7:45 PM UTC

sudden_dystopia wrote: post #38

They aren’t just going to give you a free day off. There would be a commensurate decrease in your pay. I don’t find the 5 days/week to be “irrational”, “irrational” to whom? It’s completely rational from an employers perspective that they have a job to fulfill and it requires employees to complete the job. If they have people working 4 days /week, they need coverage for the other days. It’s not rational for the custo…

Why did you analyse the situation from everyone's perspective except the worker's?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#149

Post by puchatek » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 7:45 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #11

In some places in Europe, after some period of employment, you can demand of your employer to let you work 80% of hours for 80% of pay. I have team members in Europe on this schedule and it works out well for everyone. Based on that experience, I'd also be open to such an arrangement for employees based in geographies where that's not legally required, but is legally and practically permitted. My guess is that most p…

Me and another colleague on a team of 6 have the same arrangement. Works well enough but if i worked even less then the limited exposure to the flow of relevant information would start to show. I might make up for that by declaring that i will only focus on some parts of our domain but that would make me less flexible than the rest of the team and i would feel more like a burden.

So there are parts of the world where you could reasonably go to a the day weekend if you wanted enough.

A nice side effect is that if you live in a country with progressive tax you end up getting a higher net per-hour wage than if you worked 5 days because of the lower income and thus lower tax rate.

IIUC the US has this perma-work culture where if you don't want to always be working and earning the most you can earn then something must be wrong with you, maybe you're a commie or a hippie or sth. I hear that Japan had the same but this is radically changing as a result of the pandemic. Maybe the US will change a bit too?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#150

Post by missedthecue » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 7:46 PM UTC

henryfjordan wrote: post #131

missedthecue wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are workers getting more productive, or are tools and technology getting more productive? It used to take a room full of highly trained engineers using slide-rules, protractors, and graphing paper to design the newest car or plane. Now it's done in AutoCAD. But it's not obvious to me why the employee should collect the difference for the capital investment poured into technology. In other words, it's not as if humans…

I agree that it isn't obvious who should reap the benefits of productivity gains, but that means it is also not obvious to me that the capitalist should get it compared to the employee. We created a system that heavily favors the capitalist starting with the Industrial Revolution. Prior to that most of society was subsistence farming. Encouraging capital investment in new machines and factories through laws/policies…

"Why should we continue to award 100% of the gains of new technologies to capitalists?"

Because they assume the risk of these ventures. Ever hear the statistics about how 95% of startups fail in the first x years? Meanwhile, the guy clicking around in AutoCAD did nothing to further the rise of productivity. Why should he be gifted the benefits of other's toil simply for breathing?