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Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

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Re: Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

#141
post #115
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chicken pox and shingles are the same virus. If you've had chickenpox, they won't give you that vaccine. But you should definitely get the shingles vaccine either way, if possible (CDC is still denying it to adults under 50, even though shingles affects adults under 50).

Your facts are opposite to reality. If you had chicken pox (even asymptomatic), that puts you at especial risk for shingles; not surprisingly, as it is a retrovirus. I had chicken pox, and got the shingles vaccine. They did not ask.

Not everyone who has had chicken pox is aware they’ve had it. That’s why everyone should get the shingles vaccine.

Re: Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote isn't offhand, it's directly and explicitly making claims of causality, e.g. talking about the "effect" and saying the vaccination "reduces the risk". Yes the paper says differently. So what? We're used to this from epidemiology by now. The claims they make to the government/media/public about disease frequently don't match their actual data. To discover this you have to not only read the paper but often di…

You missed my point. I don't actually think the quote was offhand either (another comment suggested that possibility), but the lines from the paper I cited also uses causal language. My point is that using causal language is fine (understanding that it's provisional as all science is), and I think the scientist quote is fine. You think the scientist quote is dishonest? It seems you too conflate causality with somethi…

If they're going to claim causality for vaccines->less Alzheimers then yes, they need pretty close to 100% confidence for that because this is the sort of thing that gets translated into mandatory government policies. What they have here is literally nothing, it's just a correlation. They don't have any evidence of a causal relation, and they don't have any suggested biological pathway either. It's malpractice to assert causality given such a total absence of evidence.

Moreover, as a killed comment elsewhere in this thread points out, it's very likely that they made a mistake somewhere. This claim is absurd on its face. A 40% effect size is enormous. Alzheimer's is tracked very closely and there has been no change in incidence over time:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/prevalence-of-dementias

Flu vaccines on the other hand have become far more prevalent over the last 20 years especially amongst the age groups most at risk for Alzheimers. So, where's the impact? There isn't any. If flu vaccines really reduced the risk that much then we'd see it in the actual numbers, as a 40% reduction is hard to hide.

Re: Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

#143
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well let's test this theory out then. Would you say I was being ridiculous if I told you that the number of people who drown in a year is linked to how many movies nicolas cage appears in? If so, then you might not actually believe linked is simply a synonym for correlation. I know I certainly would think that was a ridiculous way to phrase it.

That's just being facetious though. We've all seen that website with funny correlations. This line of argument while an important lesson to look deeper into systems before claiming a correlation doesn't really add much here. Loads of people get the flu vaccine. Enough that I'd imagine the sample size is representative of the population at large. A large number of people also don't get the flu vaccine. So this is a su…

It's not facetious. It's quite the stretch to say that if you assume literally any injection could cure any disease, it's OK to describe any found correlation as a "link".

This sort of intellectual looseness is not free. People are learning to treat claims by scientists as untrue, and it's partly because of this sort of press release/paper hacking.

Finding a correlation between two random medical data sets does not mean there is a "link" in any English that normal people would use it. It definitely does not mean there's an "effect" or that one thing "reduces" the other. It might mean there's something worth a followup investigation there, though given the prevalence of non-reproducible p-hacked results in science, also maybe not.

Regardless, before doing press releases and going to the public with such a claim there is a large amount of work needing to be done to actually prove causality. Moreover you'd then want to ask why does such a thing happen when there is no prior reason to suspect such an impact.

Re: Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

#144
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet, you also find it plausible that people who spent years on this project would never have thought of that. I find it plausible that the few people who spent hours reviewing this paper didn't think of that, and that the people publishing the paper ignored it since ignoring it could help them gain more funding. > Your misplaced trust in your own plausibility filter causes you to make foolish posts on HN. It is foo…

Scientists are very frequently wrong. Any scientist who doesn't admit that is none. One example is adjacent to the topic here, continued adherence to the amyloid beta hypothesis. But their mistakes are generally subtle, and not what somebody who knows nothing about the subject invents in the first seconds after first hearing about the topic.

We're talking about epidemiology though. Their papers routinely contain major, grievous errors that anyone can spot in five minutes. There might well be subtle errors too but it doesn't matter when the field is overrun with papers that are quite obviously invalid on their face to any outsider, yet none of the insiders care.

The primary COVID model that triggered lockdowns was full of programming errors. It had never been peer reviewed, and its prediction of deaths varied by 80,000 depending on whether you engaged a data loading optimization or not. It gave totally different results depending on available CPU features! There were no tests and the results had never been validated against anything. Outsiders pointed out these problems, and the team didn't care, nor did anyone else in the field of epidemiology.

That's just one example of many. Epidemiology is kinda like the phrenology of our era (one of quite a few). It's not built on a firm scientific foundation.

Re: Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

#145
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlations do imply a link, though. They don't imply causation, but in the absence of selection bias and with enough of a sample size, it is almost certain there is a link somewhere.

Well let's test this theory out then. Would you say I was being ridiculous if I told you that the number of people who drown in a year is linked to how many movies nicolas cage appears in? If so, then you might not actually believe linked is simply a synonym for correlation. I know I certainly would think that was a ridiculous way to phrase it.

[deleted]

Re: Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

#146
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always read "protective effect" to be making a predictive statement and not a causal one.

"Reduce" is also an action verb that means causation.

The presence of protective effects reduces the expectation of future observations of something, and merely describes temporal correlation. I so far just see standard language used in literature.

Re: Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

#147
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are apparently two egg-free options: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/egg-allergies.htm

Yes there are versions that are not egg based, but last I remember they were not guaranteed to be available at a given location (I haven't gotten the flu shot in years because it was tedious). Which is why I'm hoping as mRNA as a mechanism grows more common non-egg based shots will as well. I remember when I was getting the covid shot being paranoid and triple checking that it in no way shape form or fashion used egg…

Is mRNA really better? My impression (not based on high quality data) is that the mRNA COVID vaccines are rather more unpleasant to receive than a flu shot. Of course, there is a distinct lack of other mRNA vaccines for comparison.

Re: Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

#148
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dementia is preceded by many years of cognitive decline, it isn't something that just appears. A person with partially developed dementia that wouldn't get detected in a screen is still probably less likely to go get a flu shot, wouldn't you think?

It's certainly impressive that you thought up this profound and fundamental flaw in their study in just a few minutes pondering this on the couch and after briefly skimming a summary article published in a pop-media publication ... yet the fleet of scientists and researchers didn't consider this, factor it in, describe their control processes to cater for this and other confounding effects etc, for a study that spann…

the online paper is here

https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-...

They controlled by excluding patients if:

"they had a diagnosis of mild cognitive impairment (MCI), encephalopathy, or dementia of any cause during the look-back period, or if they filled a prescription for a medication indicated for AD"

Therefore they didnt exclude patients with early signs of cognitive impairment (because it is not possible to do so, because it is not recorded anywhere)

Re: Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

#149
post #54

Lots of discussion in this thread about the accuracy of the implied claim "vaccination can prevent Alzheimers", but not a lot about the correct course of action. Which seems to me to be, unambiguously, you should absolutely be religious about getting your flu shot every year. The vaccine is known to be safe and with few side effects (or at least, safer than the actual flu, which is the bar that needs to be cleared.)…

I used to think that way; especially in that every once-in-a-while, a flu strain comes through that affects older generations less, because it's like something they saw decades ago, but youngr people haven't yet. So, why not get every year's best guess for upcoming flu strains – & even if it misses this year, maybe it'll help years or decades from now?

However: it turns out that some of the usual case for yearly flu shots is little more hand-wavy than I'd realized.

Flu-like illnesses aren't as well-tracked as the stats might make you think - with an awful lot of grouping under "influenza-like illnesses" of non-flu diseases (that aren't helped by flu immunization), or tallying with all pneumonias. I have a strong sense that pre-COVID, normal "flu deaths" stats were already being exagerrated as part of the campaign to remind people to get flu shots.

For example, in late 2018, part of the CDC's push for more vaccinations estimated the previous flu season was the deadliest in memory, with 80k deaths, and that previously, the worst year had been 56k deaths: https://www.statnews.com/2018/09/26/cdc-us-flu-deaths-winter...

But in their current estimates, that same flu season only killed 52k - and not a single season of the last 10 reached 56k: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

(Some have been pointing out such issues for a while, such as in this 2005 BMJ comment, "Are US flu death figures more PR than science?" – https://www.bmj.com/content/331/7529/1412.)

This actually came back to bite public health authorities during COVID when even the harder data on early COVID mortality could be characterized, against inflated flu-severity numbers, as "no more than 10x worse than a recent bad flu season". Truer (smaller) flu numbers likely would've led to instead an "at least 10x and probably 20x" comparison.

At the same time, it's quite hard to track the yearly effectiveness of flu shots against strains that often don't not match those chosen when vax production begins. In normal years, even suspected flu deaths don't necessarily lead to a lab-determined confirmation of any infectious agents involved.

You can see how little researchers trust the consistency of data on flu cases in the very research highlighted here. If you think flu vaxes prevent Alzheimer's, one obvious mechanism to theorize might be: actually getting the flu increases Alzheimer's risk, the shot reduces flu cases. But they don't even run that analysis, because they don't trust the data on actual flu cases suffered in their samples as being unbiased. (They write: "Fourth, we chose not to include influenza infections in our analyses because of concerns surrounding influenza infection misclassification in retrospective studies of administrative data [56]. Similar to the authors of a recent study investigating the flu vaccine’s association with dementia risk in a VA cohort [20], we concluded that the potential bias from frequent misclassification of infection status outweighed the potential benefits of including this factor in the analysis.")

Finally, and this is the kicker which might knock me off my previous habit of annual flu vaxes, until I'm at a more-frail age, is that there was growing recognition before COVID that regular, mismatched flu vaxes might actually increase susceptibility to some future strains.

You can see a bit of discussion of that in this 2019 guide to the "changing science of flu shots" – https://www.statnews.com/2019/10/14/updated-guide-changing-s... – specifically bottom "Can repeated vaccination actually backfire?" section.)

Two mechanisms that might contribute are imprinting (overspecializing immunity to the 1st strains seen, slowing later) and urgency-fading (training the immune system "we see a batch of these paper-tiger threats every year & they never create actual illness, so we can tamp down our responses to this whole class of agents").

This suggests to me that, even as a big fan of vaccination, I may want to use it somewhat more sparingly: when a specific strain has a higher risk, when a specific formula is well-tuned to an emerging threat. Otherwise, both for me & the community, I might be dissipating the benefits before they're urgent.

Re: Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

#150
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there are versions that are not egg based, but last I remember they were not guaranteed to be available at a given location (I haven't gotten the flu shot in years because it was tedious). Which is why I'm hoping as mRNA as a mechanism grows more common non-egg based shots will as well. I remember when I was getting the covid shot being paranoid and triple checking that it in no way shape form or fashion used egg…

Is mRNA really better? My impression (not based on high quality data) is that the mRNA COVID vaccines are rather more unpleasant to receive than a flu shot. Of course, there is a distinct lack of other mRNA vaccines for comparison.

it is simple availability. If they are everywhere as a default option it guarantees those with egg allergies have an option at the place they are going to. And it is possible everywhere started carrying non-egg options after I got tired of checking.
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