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Are we running out of resources?

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Re: Are we running out of resources?

#141

Post by wly_cdgr »

jacknews wrote: post #40
wly_cdgr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think we should definitely try to remake not just our galaxy but the universe for our comfort and desires

If we have the power to transform the universe, we have the power to transform ourselves. Why would we make the universe ape our biologically-inspired needs and desires, when we could transcend them and become so much more?

I think we are plenty as is, and as for why bother to make the universe do our bidding - because there's great pleasure satisfaction and fulfillment in bending cold indifferent nature to our will...not to mention in enjoying a hot cup of cocoa, a good book, and a long slow blowjob by the fireplace on a dark wintry night

If you have not seen the Les Blank documentary Always For Pleasure, I highly recommend it

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#142

Post by marginalia_nu »

hnlmorg wrote: post #139
marginalia_nu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the inhabitants of Easter Island.

One needs to be very careful when making statements like that because early accounts of Easter Island are varied and subjective. However what is known with greater certainty is that they saw lots of visitors who brought diseases like smallpox and who took substantial numbers of Easter Island natives into slavery.

I don't understand, are you saying the trees got smallpox and were enslaved and that's why they are gone?

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#143

Post by ericmay »

beaconstudios wrote: post #71
chii wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have poor people in other countries doing it instead. and they become less poor afterwards. Eventually, they will no longer accept the low wages as their own wealth increases. i think this is a good outcome - all parties benefit from the transaction. This will take a long time to play out, and in the mean time, the research and development of tech would progress enough to find a solution to the energy and resour…

> and they become less poor afterwards. This doesn't happen when you're paid subsistence wages, which sweatshop workers are. It's exploitation of the poor, pure and simple - there's no trickle-down economics in play, they just get to stay poor but alive while the goods they make are sold to wealthier countries. It would be really nice if free markets played out the way free market advocates say they do, but they don'…

>This doesn't happen when you're paid subsistence wages, which sweatshop workers are

How did any country ever become wealthy? The US and UK for example went through the Industrial Revolution too, where people were paid subsistence wages and worked in sweatshops...

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#144

Post by silicon2401 »

beaconstudios wrote: post #134
silicon2401 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can attain a pretty great standard for everybody. By whose definition? Living in a city is not a great quality of life for me. I've done it and hated it compared to living in a suburb. > Not only is population control completely unnecessary, but it requires either mass murder or forced sterilisation. I would prefer that we not do either of those things. Educated people have way fewer children than poor and unedu…

I don't live in a city either, but American suburbs are terrible. I can't imagine living somewhere where I can't nip to the shops 2 minutes down the road (walkable or drivable), where I have to drive long distances to get to the nearest economic hub because it was plonked down in the middle of nowhere, where the main road is basically a small highway. I want walkable human-friendly environments with a mix of high- an…

> I can't imagine living somewhere where I can't nip to the shops 2 minutes down the road (walkable or drivable)

have you lived in the US? there are lots of different kinds of suburbs. my suburbs have shops

> I have to drive long distances to get to the nearest economic hub because it was plonked down in the middle of nowhere

long distances is relative so I can't comment here.

> I want walkable human-friendly environments with a mix of high- and low-density accomodation to suit people's preferences.

I want low-density accommodations. I want everybody to have acres of land and I want to go days without seeing other people.

> A cap on immigration doesn't change the population

Take Japan, or any other country with negative rate of change in population. Without immigrants, how do you imagine their population will change?

> it certainly gives me a vibe of what you actually want.

Why so cryptic? I'll tell you what I want so you don't make some weird assumptions. I want to live in a world where people have the option to live with acres and acres of land. I want to be a hermit so I never have to see other human beings unless I have to go into town to buy groceries. People who enjoy cities should go ahead and live there if they want, but in your hive world, there are no countrysides or suburbs left, just sprawling concrete scars on the landscape where people go to rooftop mini-parks and think they're experiencing nature

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#145

Post by dragonwriter »

ericmay wrote: post #143
beaconstudios wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and they become less poor afterwards. This doesn't happen when you're paid subsistence wages, which sweatshop workers are. It's exploitation of the poor, pure and simple - there's no trickle-down economics in play, they just get to stay poor but alive while the goods they make are sold to wealthier countries. It would be really nice if free markets played out the way free market advocates say they do, but they don'…

>This doesn't happen when you're paid subsistence wages, which sweatshop workers are How did any country ever become wealthy? The US and UK for example went through the Industrial Revolution too, where people were paid subsistence wages and worked in sweatshops...

> The US and UK for example went through the Industrial Revolution too, where people were paid subsistence wages and worked in sweatshops...

Then they had mass, deadly, pro- and anti-labor violence culminating in various labor protections which resulted in a less-miserable distribution of the rewards of industry, a process which has been interspersed with backsliding and repetition over time.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#146

Post by hnlmorg »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #142
hnlmorg wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One needs to be very careful when making statements like that because early accounts of Easter Island are varied and subjective. However what is known with greater certainty is that they saw lots of visitors who brought diseases like smallpox and who took substantial numbers of Easter Island natives into slavery.

I don't understand, are you saying the trees got smallpox and were enslaved and that's why they are gone?

My point is that some of the accounts do report trees. While the stories of deforestation are true it’s a far cry from the island being baron and inhabitants turning into savage cannibals. That’s the subjective part.

Yet we do know with certainty that hundreds, if not thousands, of inhabitants were taken as slaves and the remaining suffered from rampant diseases that were introduced to that island.

So what killed them might not have been lack of resources but rather the same old story of more powerful nations exploiting them.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#147

Post by pfdietz »

bmitc wrote: post #115
pfdietz wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What he is pointing out is the long history of doomsaying being wrong, because it implicitly depends on the assumption that technology has reached its peak and cannot further improve. To get a real doomsaying argument, you have to base it not on details of current technology, but on hard physical limits that no technological improvement can evade. And it's really tough to do that. The population limit for Earth based…

What about the argument that technological growth and developments are the cause , or at least a catalyst, of all our problems rather than some part of the solution?

It sounds like guilt by association and ignores the importance of incentive structures. Economies that allow actors to foist pollution costs on others will have more pollution than is economically optimal. This isn't because of the industry creating the pollution, it's because of the economic structure allowing the negative externalities.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#149

Post by beaconstudios »

silicon2401 wrote: post #144
beaconstudios wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't live in a city either, but American suburbs are terrible. I can't imagine living somewhere where I can't nip to the shops 2 minutes down the road (walkable or drivable), where I have to drive long distances to get to the nearest economic hub because it was plonked down in the middle of nowhere, where the main road is basically a small highway. I want walkable human-friendly environments with a mix of high- an…

> I can't imagine living somewhere where I can't nip to the shops 2 minutes down the road (walkable or drivable) have you lived in the US? there are lots of different kinds of suburbs. my suburbs have shops > I have to drive long distances to get to the nearest economic hub because it was plonked down in the middle of nowhere long distances is relative so I can't comment here. > I want walkable human-friendly environ…

> have you lived in the US? there are lots of different kinds of suburbs. my suburbs have shops

Well, good - that's not the type of suburb I was taking issue with, as I would hope was apparent.

> I want low-density accommodations. I want everybody to have acres of land and I want to go days without seeing other people.

That's not possible. If everybody were to live in that kind of isolation, nothing would get done.

> Take Japan, or any other country with negative rate of change in population. Without immigrants, how do you imagine their population will change?

That doesn't change the population level globally. It's just shifting people between borders.

> Why so cryptic?

Because its just an impression and people tend to take suggestions that they have eco-fascist inclinations pretty badly. Talking about population control and low-education immigrants isn't definitive but it certainly smells bad.

> I want to be a hermit so I never have to see other human beings unless I have to go into town to buy groceries

I'm not against that, if it can be done in such a way where everybody gets what they want. I'm only really against hording of resources to the detriment of others.

> but in your hive world, there are no countrysides or suburbs left, just sprawling concrete scars on the landscape where people go to rooftop mini-parks and think they're experiencing nature

Nice 40k reference, but you have a strange impression of what I've said. I want a world where people's personal preferences are maximised, which includes living arrangements; we just have to do it sustainably so the biosphere doesn't collapse. I love nature too, see - I live just on the edge of the countryside myself.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#150

Post by marginalia_nu »

hnlmorg wrote: post #146
marginalia_nu wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand, are you saying the trees got smallpox and were enslaved and that's why they are gone?

My point is that some of the accounts do report trees. While the stories of deforestation are true it’s a far cry from the island being baron and inhabitants turning into savage cannibals. That’s the subjective part. Yet we do know with certainty that hundreds, if not thousands, of inhabitants were taken as slaves and the remaining suffered from rampant diseases that were introduced to that island. So what killed the…

Well this is a discussion about trees. The post I replied to suggested we start chopping down trees when we run out of other resources. Hence my suggestion that this may not be a good idea.

I don't understand where you're getting the cannibalism from.

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