Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees • Hacker News Board

Re: Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

#141

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 1:55 PM UTC

Etheryte wrote: post #137

goldfeld wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry to go off on a tangent, but the modern americanisms and other figuratives of english perpetually amuse me. First because people get so used to internet-powered mannerisms that even professional writers feel compelled to use contorted turns of phrase even when it would be easier to just employ an old (tired?) verb, adverb or something. The poor verbs suffer from ageism too and are going jobless! Honestly I f…

That's a fair point, I think as a non-native speaker I don't always notice these separate-yet-linked connotations, and pointing them out definitely helps in that regard. What would be a better way to get the same idea across?

> What would be a better way to get the same idea across?

What you said.

They are war refugees in a political context. As hackers, however, they may seek to hit the ground running. This isn’t an Americanism. It isn’t denying reality. It’s acknowledging the slice of reality relevant to this discussion, which exists in the optimistic change-the-world pathos of hacker culture.

Re: Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

#142

Post by eldaisfish » Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 1:56 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #125

csmpltn wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans." > "If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one." The lack of a well-defined and rational response, beyond vague feelings, is what causes this discussion to eventually reduce down to claims of pure racism. We're denying that there's racism and xenophobia involved, whilst simultaneously being unable to explain why we're seeing those dif…

>Why do we treat those groups differently then? Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with…

There's a lot of context missing here. Russia does as well as Ukraine in STEM fields and that is because of the Soviet Union making education cheap and accessible, not anything Ukraine specifically did.

Are you sure that Ukrainians are the same ethnicity?

Are you sure that Ukrainians share the same values about religion and human rights as western europe?

>usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism.

You could use this exact sentence to describe many regions behind the iron curtain, Ukraine included. It's really telling how many people here are willing to bend over backwards to paint Ukraine as a progressive, "Western compatible" country all the while pretending that there is zero racism in these attitudes.

Re: Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

#143

Post by axiosgunnar » Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 1:59 PM UTC

eldaisfish wrote: post #106

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this looks at Europeans with Rose tinted glasses. I think there is innate tribalism in all of us. We can all rationally fight it and we rationally know what is morally the right thing to do. But it is in our core psychology to look for similarities/differences and identify as close/distance to other people. The Ukrainian government has also made an amazing job at galvanizing EU social media around this. The messa…

Quoted post unavailable.

Hilarious, one nation is fighting an existential threat, and this dude blabbers out a sentence containing the words

> Ukrainian propaganda

Unimaginable

Re: Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

#144

Post by rich_sasha » Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 2:01 PM UTC

krageon wrote: post #132

rich_sasha wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not entirely true. Polish Far Right has been fired up against the Ukrainians for some time (I mean, it's always just a matter of time and foreignness), just aren't getting any traction. The key sticking point, and at peacetime possibly quite serious, is the Volhynia massacre [1]. I won't go into details, and context is very important as it wasn't unprovoked, but it was a terrible massacre of Poles by Ukrainian…

> context is very important as it wasn't unprovoked No matter how provoked ethnic cleansing is never a good response.

Indeed. My point, the Polish side had applied genocide in the past, and bloody discriminatory policies not much earlier.

Plus, it was in Nazi-occupied, well, present-day Western Ukraine, and the Nazis were supportive of this. It's non-obvious how to judge this kind of events.

Re: Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

#145

Post by koonsolo » Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

krageon wrote: post #140

koonsolo wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- law above religion - equality - democracy - Separation of powers ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers ) - ... See for official EU value: https://ec.europa.eu/component-library/eu/about/eu-values/

> law above religion When the laws come about as functions of entrenched religious thinking, one is not above the other. This value is also not listed on the page you link. > equality Clearly not, as not all refugees are equal. > Democracy You've got me there. Many of the listed values are there for PR purposes: The practicalities of daily living are different or in some aspects even very different.

> one is not above the other

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state Take a good look at which countries are not part of that list. You cannot have freedom of religion without it.

> Clearly not, as not all refugees are equal.

The process seems equal to me: https://www.cgrs.be/en/international-protection/refugee-stat....

Re: Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

#146

Post by yznovyak » Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 2:09 PM UTC

cute_boi wrote: post #94

hkpack wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be thinking that it's a Putin's war, but I can assure you, Russian people are wholeheartedly support the war. Even people who live abroad. > It scares me how people lose their minds to xenophobia, war, and hate Because while some russians are experiencing "hate and xenophobia", civilian people is Ukraine are being brutally killed in thousands using unguided bombs, artillery strikes or MLRSs. For you, dead o…

Can you please justify "Russian people are wholeheartedly support the war". I know you are making this specious statement because if this was the case why Russian government do shenanigans during election? Clearly, many people doesn't support him. People seem to forget 1 person can control hundreds cattle. And there is high chance, 1 police can easily control 20 people. I have a lot of friends in Russia, and they all…

> Clearly, many people doesn't support him.

Unfortunately this is not so clear. I've never heard any numbers that would indicate that the explicit support is less than 50%. The most recent figure I've seen is 58%: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-publi... But when I visit Russian reddit (pikabu.ru and d3.ru) I am appalled by the fervent support of this war by the common people, subjectively it feels like 95+%.

To put it bluntly, I believe that the modern Russia is fascist. There are many definitions of fascism, but common themes seem to be:

1. Cult of personality. Putin. Enough said.

2. Powerful and continuing nationalism. Russia has updated their constitution to include article 68 which defines Russian language as "язык государствообразующего народа" that is "the language of state-forming people".

3. Identification of enemies as unifying force. Huge disdain for USA, EU, and NATO. Obama personally steals money from Russia's retirees, EU is being openly described as gayrope.

4. Rampant sexism ... I don't think this can be applied to Russia. In general women from ex-USSR states are pretty badass.

5. Controlled Mass Media. You got it.

6. Obsession with national security. Russia's rhetoric is like that of an abusive spouse: Ukraine forced us to preemptively attack, or otherwise they (Ukr) would have attacked us (Rus).

7. Religion and government intertwined. I'll pull you up a video of Russia's main priest (archbishop? patriarch) blessing this war: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/07/russian-church-lea.... Also there are numerous videos of Russian priests blessing ICBMs: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/6b54ml/a_russian_or...

8. Fraudlent elections. You got it.

9. Rampant croynism and corruption. Yep.

10. Those guys even got their own swastika -- the Z letter. Displayed publicly and numerously.

Please let me know if you want me to elaborate on any of the above points and I'll gladly provide you with examples. I'd elaborate from the start, but there's an air raid siren and I have to run to the bomb shelter :(.

Re: Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

#147

Post by bass3l » Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 2:19 PM UTC

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #29

fxtentacle wrote: post #14

Quoted post unavailable.

> I wonder how Syrian refugees would feel about this, considering that they also fled to EU from a war zone with Russian ranks. It is a little disingenuous to blame Russians for Syrian refugees, given that we already had tens of millions of people that left Syria before Russia joined the party started by IS and other Islamists and escalated by the US/NATO.

Sorry, but you are wrong. They are to be blamed with their vetos on 14 [1] UN resolutions since October 2011, covering human rights violations, indiscriminate aerial bombing, the use of force against civilians, toxic chemical weapons, and calls for a meaningful ceasefire, which if had been applied, this debate might not even exist.

[1] https://research.un.org/en/docs/sc/quick

Re: Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

#148

Post by galfarragem » Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #128

eldaisfish wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You’re not wrong about Ukraine, but they’re still a lot more European than Syria will ever be and that matters a lot. Still, I also find it ridiculous how the media’s making them look like immaculate heroes. Power of propaganda I guess.

All media is biased. Some more, some less, but being unbiased is impossible by definition. Autocratic media is biased in a compulsory way. The problem is when Democratic media becomes activist and start to sell opinions as facts (they learnt that drama and toxicity sells), becoming unshamefully biased and almost matching its counterpart. I'm not sure this is helping at all Ukraine or the world.

Re: Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

#149

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

eldaisfish wrote: post #142

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do we treat those groups differently then? Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with…

There's a lot of context missing here. Russia does as well as Ukraine in STEM fields and that is because of the Soviet Union making education cheap and accessible, not anything Ukraine specifically did. Are you sure that Ukrainians are the same ethnicity? Are you sure that Ukrainians share the same values about religion and human rights as western europe? >usually comes from importing people from countries with a lon…

Yeah, Ukraine has the same issue every other post-Soviet country has, even the EU ones, like corruption and poverty. But after the 2014 revolution the people of Ukraine proved that they prefer western values more than being Putin's puppet state.

Re: Norwegian developer job board for Ukrainian refugees

#150

Post by csmpltn » Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #125

csmpltn wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans." > "If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one." The lack of a well-defined and rational response, beyond vague feelings, is what causes this discussion to eventually reduce down to claims of pure racism. We're denying that there's racism and xenophobia involved, whilst simultaneously being unable to explain why we're seeing those dif…

>Why do we treat those groups differently then? Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with…

You're making a lot of broad, unfounded claims. According to [1], Ukraine has a "A long path towards integration" (into the European Union):

> "Of course, it is not only Ukraine’s population but its level of economic development that makes membership so costly for the EU. Ukraine is much poorer than Bulgaria, the poorest existing EU member state. Using 2013 World Bank pre-crisis (mid-year) figures, Ukraine’s GDP per capita ($3,900) was slightly over half (53%) that of Bulgaria ($7,340). Ukraine’s GDP per capita is also just over one-tenth (11%) that of the EU average ($34,240). For the sake of comparison, the GDP per capita of Croatia, the newest EU member, is almost identical to that of Poland ($13,520) and higher than that of the largest candidate country Turkey ($10,945)."

"Ukraine’s membership prospects are also linked to significant legal and political challenges. In discussions over Ukraine’s Association Agreement, EU negotiators repeatedly expressed concern over Ukraine’s high level of corruption, and insisted upon reforms within the judicial and electoral systems, as well as the release of former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko from prison for medical treatment."

[1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/eu-accession-and-ukrain... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_E...