Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship • Hacker News Board

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#141

Post by krschultz » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 2:22 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #125

mquander wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I downvoted you because, although I am sort of interested in potential government support for entrepreneurs, I have zero interest in reading an argument about whether countries have a right to tax their citizens. This is HN, not prisonplanet.com.

Well I hope you took the time to downvote this entire thread then. What is a citizen anyway though? Edit: I just looked up prisonplanet.com. Interesting how extreme left-wing positions (I am an anarchist) can be easily mistaken for extreme right-wing positions, such as those of Alex Jones.

That's because although the political spectrum is often described as a line, it's really a circle and the ends of the right and left meet.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#142

Post by adient » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 2:42 AM UTC

pkteison wrote: post #98

chopsueyar wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you fire an employee, why do you pay unemployment? I would understand if you laid them off, but firing? Also, if you are paying for their unemployment, why is unemployment being deducted from their paycheck too?

The employee files for unemployment insurance regardless, lying and claiming they were laid off. You file a dispute, claiming they were terminated for cause. The unemployment office makes it quite clear that you will lose your dispute and should drop it. You refuse, because you have a good clear case where clearly this guy was fired for cause. You present your good clear case, and you lose anyway, and the person fire…

I find it odd when people create such strange generalizations in their head. Whether this comment is from your own anecdotal experience or not, it is just plain wrong as a general matter. Defeating an unemployment appeal is certainly possible and not that difficult if you've done your due diligence during the process.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#143

Post by krschultz » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 2:44 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #107

krschultz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't throw out the 'love it or leave it' for 99% of posts on almost all issues, but when a person equates taxation with theft, it's just a lost cause. We can and should debate what to do with our tax money, but fundamentally the system always ends up in a state where some people are unhappy with some of the spending. There is no way to reconcile what those on the far right and far left want. We end up somewhere in…

Your "love it or leave it" attitude towards taxation assumes that all individuals should for some reason resign themselves to the sovereignty of the Unites States Federal Government. My chosen geographic location is not an admission of consent to be 'taxed' by men with guns. Edit: Oh cool, looks like I stepped on somebodies toes, they went back and downvoted all my currently votable comments at once. So tell me Mr Re…

Thankfully that statement makes sense to such a small group of people even if all of you dropped out of society completely it wouldn't make one lick of difference politically or financially.

I'm not the downvoter of your comments, but I basically disagree with your entire sentiment.

Obviously, no one enjoys paying taxes. But guess what, everyone benefits from government services and you have a responsibility not only to the other people currently paying taxes that benefit you, but also to those generations that paid the taxes before us to make our country what it is today.

You will probably be thinking right now 'but I don't use many (any?) government services, I don't need the government to do this stuff'. Sure you can be home schooled, grow your own food, live off the electric grid, protect yourself with a gun etc etc etc etc. I don't care. That argument will never convince me. As a single guy with no kids making way more than the national salary and renting an apartment, guess what, I pay an enormous amount of taxes and get basically no deductions while using almost no government services. Too fucking bad for me.

At the end of the day, this country is what it is because of the massive amount of taxes paid by people over the last 235 years that has gone into settling the country, building the economy, and running our defense dept. It's my turn to pay the bill and while I'm not happy about it, I know I'd rather be paying the taxes I pay and living in this country than paying no taxes in an anarchist state.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#144

Post by burgerbrain » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 3:20 AM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #141

burgerbrain wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I hope you took the time to downvote this entire thread then. What is a citizen anyway though? Edit: I just looked up prisonplanet.com. Interesting how extreme left-wing positions (I am an anarchist) can be easily mistaken for extreme right-wing positions, such as those of Alex Jones.

That's because although the political spectrum is often described as a line, it's really a circle and the ends of the right and left meet.

The political spectrum is far more multidimensional than that.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#145

Post by riverlaw » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 3:21 AM UTC

pkteison wrote: post #98

chopsueyar wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you fire an employee, why do you pay unemployment? I would understand if you laid them off, but firing? Also, if you are paying for their unemployment, why is unemployment being deducted from their paycheck too?

The employee files for unemployment insurance regardless, lying and claiming they were laid off. You file a dispute, claiming they were terminated for cause. The unemployment office makes it quite clear that you will lose your dispute and should drop it. You refuse, because you have a good clear case where clearly this guy was fired for cause. You present your good clear case, and you lose anyway, and the person fire…

You are wrong. I won every case (~5) filed against me over ~3 years working at Tech Support. If you have proper documentation as to why you fired someone you do not have to pay unemployment insurance.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#146

Post by burgerbrain » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 3:22 AM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #143

burgerbrain wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "love it or leave it" attitude towards taxation assumes that all individuals should for some reason resign themselves to the sovereignty of the Unites States Federal Government. My chosen geographic location is not an admission of consent to be 'taxed' by men with guns. Edit: Oh cool, looks like I stepped on somebodies toes, they went back and downvoted all my currently votable comments at once. So tell me Mr Re…

Thankfully that statement makes sense to such a small group of people even if all of you dropped out of society completely it wouldn't make one lick of difference politically or financially. I'm not the downvoter of your comments, but I basically disagree with your entire sentiment. Obviously, no one enjoys paying taxes. But guess what, everyone benefits from government services and you have a responsibility not only…

I am not questioning that some percentage of money collected at gunpoint by the group of men who call themselves 'government' is put back into society.

I am questioning the so called sovereignty of those with the guns.

The distinction is fine, however important.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#147

Post by donnaware » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 3:24 AM UTC

I don't want to sound synical here, but I know a lot of people already using unemployment as seed money to try to do their start up idea sort of "off the record". If you make it legal or OK to admit it (since it is already happening a fair amount) perhaps it would make the unemployment number more accurately reflect people really looking for a job. But I could be looking at it from a perspective that is not common since I know more people trying to get their idea going than the average perhaps.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#148

Post by philwelch » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 3:58 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #108

gyardley wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still a Canadian citizen, but because I don't live in Canada, don't have assets in Canada, and don't earn income in Canada, I don't pay taxes in Canada. As far as I know, being taxed on worldwide income is just an American thing.

It is just an American thing. And it's a great example of why "if you don't like it, leave it" is bullshit particularly when spoken in the context of American politics.

If you don't like it, leave it and then renounce your citizenship.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#149

Post by teyc » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 4:02 AM UTC

incidentally this has been done in Australia under the auspices of NEIS apparently over the past 20 years (link to monthly success story here: http://www.nna.asn.au/success-stories )

On top of it, there is a layer of mentoring as well:

  To be eligible for the NEIS Small Business Course, 
  you must be in receipt of a Benefit and must have a   Jobseeker ID Number.

http://www.becnorthside.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&...

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#150

Post by hugh3 » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 4:18 AM UTC

stc wrote: post #94

sliverstorm wrote: post #80

In essence, the president’s plan will create a guaranteed source of startup capital... Is that necessarily a good thing? I was under the impression the whole "trial-by-fire" of a business plan looking for funding was a valuable testing grounds for the business-to-be.

Well you still get to do that when your $10,000 runs out.

At which point you've already wasted $10,000 of someone else's money.

There's also the good ol' sunk cost fallacy. The longer you've spent working on your dumb business plan, the less likely you are to change it to a smart business plan.