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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#141

Post by bardworx »

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #124
shakna wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line for sentience is a very low bar to hurdle. Trees may demonstrate sentience [0]. The larger problem is that people are generally thinking of sapience, but sapience tends to be defined in axiomatic terms, so we don't have a clear understanding of what it requires or means. [0] https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-...

I don't see how your link supports trees potentially being sentient.

Disclaimer: i don’t have a dog in the fight…or a branch on a tree, in this context.

Sentient is defined as able to perceive or feel things.

The paper linked discusses how trees can “communicate” and “feel” based on release of specific chemicals.

An exert from the introduction: “Recent research has revealed that plants can sense their neighbours without direct physical contact; mechanisms for this include detection of a reduced ratio of red to far-red in light reflected from neighbouring foliage…”

This was also a plot of a terrible M. Night Shyamalan movie.

That’s the connection the poster suggested, as the bar for sentience is quite low.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#142

Post by glenstein »

NineStarPoint wrote: post #121
glenstein wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amoeba can feel sensations? Not a rhetorical question, genuinely want to know.

They can react to negative stimuli. The question of if that means something can "feel" in the sense we tend to mean it isn't easy to answer.

I mean, my tendon in my knee can "react" to "negative stimuli" when a doctor strikes it with a rubber hammer.

I guess the question is about how these words are being used, and whether they're referring to automatic biological reflexes or something like a conscious experience, sentience, or sapience, depending on how you use the terms.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#143

Post by musingsole »

1270018080 wrote: post #80
phonypc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly everyone has recent ancestors that lived on a farm and loved playing with the animals. Once they were old enough to connect the dots and later saw the butchering process, they remained omnivores for the rest of their lives.

Yeah some people don't care. But I think there would be FAR less meat eaters if they weren't able to avoid the carnage.

The point is MOST people don't care. And most of them avoid the carnage because they think it's gross, not because they care.

I'll grant most people would prefer less suffering to more, but most importantly, they don't care enough to do anything about it.

Vegetarians+ just wish there were a silent cohort to back them up.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#144

Post by gruez »

moeris wrote: post #19
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Yes. The bar for sentience is quite low. It only means that one is capable of feeling sensations. (For example, Wikipedia gives the definition, "Sentience is the capacity to experience feelings and sensations.")

Does an arduino have sentience? It can certainly sense stuff via its gpio pins. As for "feelings", I don't know, would having a state machine that transitions between "happy" and "sad" based on gpio inputs count?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#145

Post by xvilka »

monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Even something small as jumping spiders can be quite smart. They certainly deserve some respect. And live boiling is common for crustaceans. Terrible practice, sentient or not.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#146

Post by doctor_eval »

colechristensen wrote: post #119
ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

This is English, not Latin or Greek. There’s no such thing as “correct” in language as long as you can be understood, especially for silly details like how to make a plural. You’ll find octopi in the dictionary because it is commonly used. Remember all words are made up anyway. If you’re not the editor of a publication making local standards for how you want to use language, it’s better not to correct people when the…

Yes. A dictionary doesn't tell you how to use words, it tells you how words are used.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#147

Post by skissane »

dragonwriter wrote: post #109
ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

> Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopi is not the most common plural, true. > Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Octopus entered English from scientific Latin. In which the Greek plural was not used. (Lots of words in English fron languages other than their language of origin and have irregular English forms from their immediate source rather than their remote origin.) “Octopi” appears to be the earliest Engl…

> Octopus entered English from scientific Latin. In which the Greek plural was not used

The Latin (nominative) plural is octōpodēs, the Greek (nominative non-neuter) plural is ὀκτώποδες. Almost identical. octopi is not used in Latin, it only appears to occur in English texts.

Most Romance languages get their primary word for "octopus" from an alternative Latin word for it, polypus (plural polypī), which comes from Greek πολύπους (plural πολύποδα). polypus is also an alternative word for octopus in English, albeit it is rather archaic. The English plural polypi cannot be accused of being a hypercorrection, but (for octopuses) polypuses is much more common. polypus is also medical terminology for a type of blood clot, and the polypi plural is often preferred when the word is used in that medical sense.

The usual Dutch word for "octopus", octopus, is pluralised by the standard Dutch rules, octopussen. English appears to be the only language in which this hypercorrect pseudo-Latin plural has any popularity.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#148

Post by giantg2 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #109
ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

> Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopi is not the most common plural, true. > Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Octopus entered English from scientific Latin. In which the Greek plural was not used. (Lots of words in English fron languages other than their language of origin and have irregular English forms from their immediate source rather than their remote origin.) “Octopi” appears to be the earliest Engl…

What about octopus as both singular and plural?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#149

Post by cfcfcf »

dragonwriter wrote: post #109
ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

> Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopi is not the most common plural, true. > Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Octopus entered English from scientific Latin. In which the Greek plural was not used. (Lots of words in English fron languages other than their language of origin and have irregular English forms from their immediate source rather than their remote origin.) “Octopi” appears to be the earliest Engl…

Is the American pronunciation of “processes” (as in, rhymes with bees) also a hypercorrection?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#150

Post by kortex »

thelibrarian wrote: post #94
ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

I have a friend who says using the word “octopi” displays ignorance of three languages at once - English, Latin, and (ancient) Greek.

I realize they are being cheeky but the ironic thing is "ignorance of N languages" is one of the primary drivers of linguistic cross-pollenation and drift. Taking loanwords, shoehorning them into your phonology, writing, and grammar is just how these things work.
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