It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated • Hacker News Board

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#141

Post by CincinnatiMan » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:29 AM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #128

codegeek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your…

I have to shake my head when reading some of the replies the parent poster is getting. It is sobering to see so many who have no love for their profession and are trapped into staying solely for money; that's a recipe for an unhappy existence, as can be seen from the bitterness evident in their words.

Meh, there are in-betweens. I neither love my profession nor feel trapped by it. It's a decent and low-stress way to make good enough money such that I can do things I actually love, such as spending time with my wife and son, or playing sports. If I were rich I wouldn't do any coding, and I doubt there are many in the profession who would. Not because I hate coding, it's fine, I just like other things more.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#142

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:30 AM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #138

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to shake my head when reading some of the replies the parent poster is getting. It is sobering to see so many who have no love for their profession and are trapped into staying solely for money; that's a recipe for an unhappy existence, as can be seen from the bitterness evident in their words.

Many people wouldn't be at their jobs if they weren't paid to do them. Many people don't do what they do out of love for the work. "On the whole, American workers are generally satisfied with their jobs. Even so, a significant share (30%) view the work they do as “just a job to get them by,” rather than a career or a steppingstone to a career. Views about work are sharply divided along socio-economic lines, and the s…

Sure, that's true for the general population but I don't think that applies here. While software isn't quite as demanding as say law or medicine, it still takes quite a bit of effort and skill to become truly proficient in our profession. Anyone talented enough to succeed at building software is also talented enough to succeed at other well paying professions; it cannot be said that we didn't choose the profession we're currently employed in.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#143

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:33 AM UTC

n8cpdx wrote: post #140

theyx wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this! I cannot believe someone is naïve enough to think total strangers will start caring about some company's progress, profits and reputation just because they are being paid minimum wage. Sorry, literally 99% of people who are seen as "do-ers" or motivated are only putting up a show to be hired and to keep their jobs. Being hungry and homeless is a great motivator. None is genuinely excited about your busi…

This doesn't make sense. There are loads of people (myself included) who are intrinsically motivated to do good work. And not just in the tech industry. Look at all the volunteer opportunities, unpajd city boards, etc that people get themselves involved in. People can be motivated by wanting to make a difference. And yes, some software companies do in fact make products and services that make a difference in people's…

[deleted]

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#144

Post by didibus » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:42 AM UTC

eptcyka wrote: post #135

didibus wrote: post #133

In other words: > Can you educate a person who lacks the skills for what you need, but is willing to put lots of effort and determination? But will that motivation remain once they're over the excitement of learning? You have no guarantees that by the time the Do-er is educated they will still be motivated. > Can you motivate an educated person that has the skills for what you need to act on them with lots of effort…

I think if you can get the optimum which is getting a motivated doer, go for it. But given the option between the two, go for the doer.

I don't know, honestly in my experience, some do-ers just couldn't cut it, some things are hard and you need people with the talent, not just the motivation. That's because I think some do-ers are also "shortcut takers", they tend to skip really putting in the work of deep understanding, and if your problem requires that, and they always try to skip that part, their efforts just won't provide ROI.

Meanwhile, a non-motivated educated person might just take longer as they're not putting as much effort on a daily basis, but they can still make progress.

But it depends on the task and the understanding required for it. Lots of task actually benefit from shortcuts, you don't need a major for most programming tasks, you don't even need any understanding of algos, data-structures, hardware, OS, distributed systems, math, etc. A lot of task you just need very simple knowledge of a framework and just put in the time to try a few things until it works, google the answers, etc.

So I'm assuming here by "do-er" we mean someone who doesn't bother learning anything unless the task at hand requires them too, and is also going to put constant effort and energy into the task on a daily basis. And this will always be more optimal in the total time spent learning/doing ratio, but if presented with a difficult task, you don't know if the do-er will be able to learn what's needed, because they have no cred that tells you that they are someone who can or can't learn such complicated things. That's where education comes in, you already know the person knows complicated stuff or was able to learn it.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#145

Post by ClumsyPilot » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:46 AM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #128

codegeek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your…

I have to shake my head when reading some of the replies the parent poster is getting. It is sobering to see so many who have no love for their profession and are trapped into staying solely for money; that's a recipe for an unhappy existence, as can be seen from the bitterness evident in their words.

"It is sobering to see so many who have no love for their profession"

I care about the goal, not the means - if the project is gonna save pandas/explore space, I am happy to dig for hours if that's what it takes.

Most startups know this, thats why they are claiming to be 'changing the world', I've seen how that sausage is made, 95% of that is pure marketing BS.

I find most work is just keeping the wheels of society spinning, taxes filed, tickboxes checked. Thats okay, someone has to do that, but not exciting.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#146

Post by ClumsyPilot » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:53 AM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #142

toomuchtodo wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people wouldn't be at their jobs if they weren't paid to do them. Many people don't do what they do out of love for the work. "On the whole, American workers are generally satisfied with their jobs. Even so, a significant share (30%) view the work they do as “just a job to get them by,” rather than a career or a steppingstone to a career. Views about work are sharply divided along socio-economic lines, and the s…

Sure, that's true for the general population but I don't think that applies here. While software isn't quite as demanding as say law or medicine, it still takes quite a bit of effort and skill to become truly proficient in our profession. Anyone talented enough to succeed at building software is also talented enough to succeed at other well paying professions; it cannot be said that we didn't choose the profession we…

You don't get to choose your character traits, such as neuroticism.

Can you live with spending 70% of your life in front of a computer? You can be a dev.

Can you live with your wrong decision costing someone's life? (And all other downsides of being a doctor). I probably couldn't.

Does reading about law bore you out of your mind? If yes, maybe you can't be a lawyer no matter how talented

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#147

Post by User23 » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:54 AM UTC

n8cpdx wrote: post #140

theyx wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this! I cannot believe someone is naïve enough to think total strangers will start caring about some company's progress, profits and reputation just because they are being paid minimum wage. Sorry, literally 99% of people who are seen as "do-ers" or motivated are only putting up a show to be hired and to keep their jobs. Being hungry and homeless is a great motivator. None is genuinely excited about your busi…

This doesn't make sense. There are loads of people (myself included) who are intrinsically motivated to do good work. And not just in the tech industry. Look at all the volunteer opportunities, unpajd city boards, etc that people get themselves involved in. People can be motivated by wanting to make a difference. And yes, some software companies do in fact make products and services that make a difference in people's…

> Look at all the volunteer opportunities, unpajd city boards, etc that people get themselves involved in.

Positions such as these often pay in increased social status. Just because the compensation is intangible doesn’t mean it’s not real. Working at an animal shelter may well raise your status with potential partners. Working on a city advisory board will definitely get you noticed and can be a stepping board toward political office. And even an unpaid senior position at a well-funded and prestigious foundation results in a great deal of clout.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#148

Post by decebalus1 » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:54 AM UTC

Is he thinking of making an exit to become a 'thought leader'? This is some Malcolm Gladwell level nonsense.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#149

Post by ClumsyPilot » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:57 AM UTC

codegeek wrote: post #63

jacquesm wrote: post #33

Alternative take: in the hiring process education is often used as a proxy for motivation, when actually it only proves that once upon a time someone was motivated long enough to get educated, but it doesn't actually say anything about their present state in terms of motivation. A 'Do-er' is at least at present motivated, and educating them will get them to the desired combination of education+motivation in the prese…

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your…

"meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves"

I feel that in this discussion we are conflating being lost and being unmotivated - they could be highly motivated and trying every opportunity, but have no clue what they are doing.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#150

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:05 AM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #128

codegeek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your…

I have to shake my head when reading some of the replies the parent poster is getting. It is sobering to see so many who have no love for their profession and are trapped into staying solely for money; that's a recipe for an unhappy existence, as can be seen from the bitterness evident in their words.

You can have love for the profession and no especially additional love for the job you apply for and perhaps get hired to. I’ve settled before like that, and as long as the people you work with and for are open enough, you can make it more into the job you want.