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My Wife Was Dying of Brain Cancer. My Boss at Amazon Told Me to Perform or Quit

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Re: My Wife Was Dying of Brain Cancer. My Boss at Amazon Told Me to Perform or Quit

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how it's done at Amazon - they are, after all, notorious for driving employees hard - but my understanding is that poor performance over a year or so is usually about the point at which firing begins to be discussed at large companies. And the problem wasn't that he didn't want to perform or was intrinsically a bad employee; the problem was that he literally couldn't due to circumstance. It's not generou…

Many things wrong with your comment, starting with the fact that firing beings to be discussed only after a year. It actually begins to be discussed immediately after the employee is assessed to be an underperformer. It's only after a year of bad written performance reviews that they can actually start to do something about it, such as put the employee on a "PIP" or fire the employee.

What were the other things?

Re: My Wife Was Dying of Brain Cancer. My Boss at Amazon Told Me to Perform or Quit

#142

Believe it or not, this isn't a rare attitude among managers at Amazon. A significant percentage of SDMs believe they must "keep a high bar" and remove any dissenting subordinates. Word has gotten out about it, mostly on the blind app, which forced Amazon to raise pay bands for engineers 50-100k. This is costing the company a lot of money. The difference going forwards for Amazon is that the stock is mostly stagnant,…

I think there is some selection bias in this. And I say this as someone who has recently quit working at Amazon (after many years there).

People who get fired are far more likely to leave reviews on blind. And the whole performance improvement plan process that proceeds being fired takes place between the employee and the SDM.

It may be the case that their org leadership told the SDM to cut their lowest ranked person to make the org's "Unregretted Rate of Attrition" quota for the year. From the employees point of view, this was purely some kind of malicious move by a terrible SDM. In reality, it's an SDM who wants to keep their job in a sociopathic system that enforces minimum rates of firing people to "keep the bar high".

Salaries are rising for engineers across the industry, in part because of the 'great resignation' going on. Make no mistake: Amazon would not raise salaries because of angry reviews on Blind. They would only raise wages if they saw too many people choosing to quit or not accept job offers in favour of other companies. Probably entirely based on a formula that used those numbers as inputs.

Re: My Wife Was Dying of Brain Cancer. My Boss at Amazon Told Me to Perform or Quit

#143
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies employ people. People have problems. Firing people, or forcing out people, when they have problems, doesn't sound like a very good place to work. It's very possible that the unspoken culture at Amazon is work hard above all else. If you've read "The Everything Store", there is a quote, something like, (regarding Bezos) "If you're bad, Jeff will run you out of the company. If you're good, he'll ride you into…

>Companies employ people. People have problems. Firing people, or forcing out people, when they have problems, doesn't sound like a very good place to work. Sure, it'd be great if my workplace kept paying me $300k even if I was under-preforming because of personal issues. However, how realistic is this expectation? Are there any places that keep under-preforming employees for half a decade, or more?

Are you arguing that no tech company has employees in most of Europe? It's very expensive to terminate people for cause in Scandinavian countries, France and the England.

Just because we don't do it in the US, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

Re: My Wife Was Dying of Brain Cancer. My Boss at Amazon Told Me to Perform or Quit

#144

A tip: If anyone finds themselves in a tragic situation like this where they can’t work but also can’t afford to take leave, investigate your short and long-term disability benefits ASAP. Also read up on the documentation necessary to begin disability claims. Engage with a doctor early on who can document the severe depressive symptoms that are preventing work (which the author specifically cites in his anecdote). Do…

gotta love that to engage with stuff like this we need to navigate a Brazil level of bureaucratic bullshit to cover our asses.

Go to the therapist a bunch, create a paper trail, dig through fine print of short/long term leave..

as if the guy wasn't deal with enough between his work and wife as it was.

it's just sad that to find a way to best help yourself, you must suffer more, shoulder more, have more chewing up your time and limited ability to deal with mounting stress.

and people wonder why random people snap and blow away 15 random people at their office.

Re: My Wife Was Dying of Brain Cancer. My Boss at Amazon Told Me to Perform or Quit

#145

I really don’t understand why people work for Amazon. Low ball offers and long work hours. No thanks.

The linked article is about an Amazon employee making $300K in Tennessee (far from a high-cost area in the US).

That is a 99th percentile salary and 97th percentile household total income for TN.

Re: My Wife Was Dying of Brain Cancer. My Boss at Amazon Told Me to Perform or Quit

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's another dodge. His direct manager is acting on behalf of the company, and in the interest of the company. The company should have behaved better. His direct manager also isn't paying the writer's salary out of a personal bank account. The point is that companies ought to treat their employees with empathy even when it costs them. There are reasonable limits to that, yes, but $300k for Amazon is well within tha…

No, companies should treat its employees with well defined policies that are easy to understand, enforce and audit. Treating employees with something as variable and open to interpretation as "empathy" is what causes companies to implode- because who defines empathy? Who defines where the line is drawn? And why is it fair that some people will inevitably get more empathy than others because maybe the manager was havi…

> No, companies should treat its employees with well defined policies that are easy to understand, enforce and audit.

These are not mutually exclusive things, much of the time, but sometimes exceptions have to be made.

> Treating employees with something as variable and open to interpretation as "empathy" is what causes companies to implode- because who defines empathy? Who defines where the line is drawn? And why is it fair that some people will inevitably get more empathy than others because maybe the manager was having a good day and then a bad day.

This is a reasonable point, but it, again, does not address my fundamental point: Amazon as a company should have more ethical and empathetic policies. Amazon as a company should instruct managers to help their employees and be willing to back that help up with financial assistance.

Whether it's Jeff Bezos or this person's manager, you seem to want to keep this at an individual level of decision-making, but that's not the change I want to make.

As for myself, I'm not a manager because I don't want to be, and having to enforce policies I don't agree with is one of the reasons for that.

Re: My Wife Was Dying of Brain Cancer. My Boss at Amazon Told Me to Perform or Quit

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very much this. You always want to be asking HR for an accommodation that is protected by law. Then HR enters into the mode of protecting the company by ensuring they don't get in trouble for violating the law. You go in and say "Hey my wife is dying and my performance is probably going to be impacted, can something be done?", HR may opt to 'protect' the company by starting to build a case for terminating a low perfo…

> You go in and say "Hey my wife is dying and my performance is probably going to be impacted, can something be done?", HR may opt to 'protect' the company by starting to build a case for terminating a low performing employee. That’s the cynical approach, but most companies don’t actually want to lose valuable employees. This is why they have disability insurance coverage in the first place to help cover those gaps (…

>That’s the cynical approach, but most companies don’t actually want to lose valuable employees. T

Maybe.

But Amazon isn't most companies.

Re: My Wife Was Dying of Brain Cancer. My Boss at Amazon Told Me to Perform or Quit

#148

You would think with how huge and renown amazon is as a company they would have their pick of top engineers. It's not the case. None of my friends that work in Facebook, Google, Microsoft, and other unicorns even consider applying to Amazon on their job search. It's actually pretty comical, I have no idea where Amazon gets their talent pool from.

I agree. I have worked for a lot of FAANGs and nobody I knew ever went to Amazon.

I was partway through agreeing to an interview request from Amazon last year when my research turned up how stingy their 401k match is. Similarly their stock vesting schedule is awful compared with everybody else.

It's not that I desperately needed that extra bit of money on top of the perhaps generous salary (no sum was named).

It's that being stingy about that stuff indicates to me that they will be less than generous in every possible situation, say if I need time to deal with a health issue or a family emergency.

Re: My Wife Was Dying of Brain Cancer. My Boss at Amazon Told Me to Perform or Quit

#150

I read through the article. I really, really hurt for its author, and pray that I never face similar circumstances. It sounds like he's stinging from his manager not expressing enough empathy. But with the information in the article, I don't really understand what Amazon should have done differently. Unfortunately the article was vague about just how much the author was underperforming. Also, while I'm no fan of Amaz…

I read the timeline and it seems like he started in mid-late 2018, was having performance problems throughout 2019, and didn't even get fired until mid-2020. This is super generous, and while I have a lot of empathy for his personal situation, I think he could have had a much different outcome if he would have been more proactive about managing expectations: - Amazon does have a bereavement benefit that you definitel…

> How many years should a company wait for an underperforming employee to perform?

Perhaps wait until after their spouse has died and see if they recover? Even the idea of an "underperforming employee" is specious at best.

This is why I love Italy and France, it is night impossible to fire someone for things like this from tech companies. Of course, they also don't have to worry about going bankrupt due to medical issues. They understand there is more to work than meeting the numbers. It is something you spend 2/3rds of your life doing, and other countries honor that.

[Oh, and also COBRA can cost $3000-$5000/month for shit coverage. Once you run out of money, they come for your stocks, retirement, and house. Source: I incurred over $100k of hospital debt AFTER INSURANCE from an assault that left my arm paralyzed. Why? If the hospital charges more than 125% medicare costs for the procedure, my $700/month Gold Plan didn't cover it. I was let go due to 6 months of absence from work, and then while unemployed and needing physical therapy, the hospital sent a request for tax statements and they began the process of a lien against my property. A lawsuit ultimately saved me, but if I hadn't been a victim, they would have taken everything. Fucking american healthcare is a joke.]

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