Performance Improvements in .NET 6 • Hacker News Board

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#141

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 9:06 AM UTC

oaiey wrote: post #49

kumarvvr wrote: post #9

For large enterprises, that use AWS / GCE / Azure, these improvements directly translate into huge savings in server capacity. I have always loved .NET and it keeps getting better and better. They have shown remarkable flexibility to throw away ideas that don't work and have modernized. A large part of that is due to active involvement of the community. This could be a new model moving forwards, a software worlds equ…

They still have problems with listening. It got much better but they often do not hear or understand when it does not fit into the world picture of their product managers. This is human (and in that level not bad or malicious) but they are a bit too proud for it.

I can vouch for it, given my failed attempts that IDL gets first class development experience given COM, UWP and C++/WinRT.

It is up for the community to provide syntax highlighting for a 30 year old language.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#142

Post by zigzag312 » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 9:11 AM UTC

tester34 wrote: post #129

zigzag312 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All upcoming UI frameworks by MS are still hung up on XAML. I get that their existing userbase is heavily invested in XAML, but in my experience XAML doesn't add much value, just unnecessarily layer of complexity, that lacks expressiveness of a programming language and makes interoperability between UI and code more convoluted. There is some "experimental" support for code based UI composition in MAUI, but since XAML…

What's wrong with XAML and what could have replace it? Maybe HTML?

C# with hot reload.

Issues with XAML:

- verbose

- static (not good fit for dynamic UIs)

- templating is unnecessarily complex

- contains code-like constructs (behaviors, convertors)

- being a separate language forces constant mental context switching when developing, which is bad for productivity. Tooling is more complex and breaks more often (like Intellisense issues)

The only good thing that XAML does is separates UI from the model, but you really don't need a separate language to do that.

What would you say are the benefits of XAML that warrant using another language for UI?

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#143

Post by m_fayer » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 9:24 AM UTC

smackeyacky wrote: post #94

I'm going to pile in too late and sing the virtues of .NET core or whatever its called now. Deployment of web apps to containers is a breeze, the language is modern feeling. Roslyn is about the most awesome thing I have played with. Razor pages are a breeze compared to the giant piles of dependency hell that client side SPAs or node have become. It feels lean and mean and I can be sitting at a debian box or a windows…

Hybrid Blazor apps are the solution to the desktop story. It's already happening, it's ready to go. It'll take a while to make it official though, too many faces in need of saving.

Avalonia is also a very compelling secondary solution.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#144

Post by zigzag312 » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

DiabloD3 wrote: post #140

zigzag312 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All upcoming UI frameworks by MS are still hung up on XAML. I get that their existing userbase is heavily invested in XAML, but in my experience XAML doesn't add much value, just unnecessarily layer of complexity, that lacks expressiveness of a programming language and makes interoperability between UI and code more convoluted. There is some "experimental" support for code based UI composition in MAUI, but since XAML…

You have never been required to use XAML, however. XAML is just a tool to allow you to describe UI API calls using XML in a way that flows well for both humans and external tooling. If you don't like XAML, just call the same exact API with C#. I don't even understand why you say "hung up on", XAML is probably the only compiles-to-code UI API I've ever used that actually does what it says it does; I've used similar to…

When I was using it, all documentation samples (and nearly all other resources) were for XAML which made it unnecessarily hard to use API in pure C#.

IMO, UI development tools are often not good for anybody. Designers are much more productive using specialized UI design applications like Sketch, Figma, Adobe XD etc. Who is responsible implementing the design depends on the company/workflow.

> XAML is just a tool to allow you to describe UI API calls using XML in a way that flows well for both humans and external tooling.

Not in my experience. XML feels very unnatural to me. XML being natural for humans was a hype from twenty years ago that was never particularly true in practice. XML feels less natural (to me) than using a normal programming language to make same API calls. XML based UI development tools are also often very unreliable and clumsy.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#145

Post by smackeyacky » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

m_fayer wrote: post #143

smackeyacky wrote: post #94

I'm going to pile in too late and sing the virtues of .NET core or whatever its called now. Deployment of web apps to containers is a breeze, the language is modern feeling. Roslyn is about the most awesome thing I have played with. Razor pages are a breeze compared to the giant piles of dependency hell that client side SPAs or node have become. It feels lean and mean and I can be sitting at a debian box or a windows…

Hybrid Blazor apps are the solution to the desktop story. It's already happening, it's ready to go. It'll take a while to make it official though, too many faces in need of saving. Avalonia is also a very compelling secondary solution.

Hybrid blazor sounds like something I need to investigate. Thanks for the heads up.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#146

Post by stephankoelle » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 9:35 AM UTC

e67f70028a46fba wrote: post #33

fmakunbound wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My favorite part of dotnet 6 is the focus on hot reloading not mentioned here Does this work, for example, to reload method changes and so on? I miss this coming from JVM.

Fun story: back in 2009 at the jvm language summit, Thomas Wuerthinger demo’d full hotswap. Method signature changes, class hierarchy, all of it. He wasn’t a sun employee at the time and the sun folks kept telling him what he was doing was impossible. We ended up using his stuff, the dcevm, internally for a long time. He was eventually hired by sun/oracle to work on other stuff and Java still doesn’t have proper hots…

His stuff is still around, maintained and very useful via: https://github.com/TravaOpenJDK/trava-jdk-11-dcevm

They say, that java on graal should have full hotswap. https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/java-on-truffle/hot...

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#147

Post by FartyMcFarter » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 9:35 AM UTC

amezmo1 wrote: post #40

.NET 5.0+ drops the 'Core' from the name. The whole .NET platform has improved incredibly within the past 5 years. Previously, to run a C#/.NET app you would need Windows, Visual Studio, and a license for IIS. These days, you can run .NET entirely on Linux, without ever touching Windows or Visual Studio. (Founder here) At Amezmo [0], we've supported .NET for sometime now, and recently added .NET 6 as an option for ou…

> Previously, to run a C#/.NET app you would need Windows, Visual Studio, and a license for IIS.

Hasn't Mono existed since 2004? Any Unity game has been running C# on many platforms by using Mono.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#148

Post by ryanjshaw » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 9:37 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #126

ryanjshaw wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It's ridiculous that .NET still doesn't have XPath 2 support after so many years. I really wish they'd hire a PM with enterprise experience, as they seem heavily focused on public facing web technologies e.g. the new native JSON serializer has all kinds of weird limitations based on 'security risks' that don't actually exist outside of public facing websites.

XSLT/XPath/XQuery 2.0+ has little first party support in general, in all programming ecosystems that I can think of. I think the problem is that it's all much more complicated than the originals, and meanwhile XML has become legacy tech - not that it's going away anytime soon, but it's kind of like the COBOL of data.

.NET caters to the enterprise, or at least it used to. It's irrelevant what other ecosystems prioritise. What makes you say that XML is legacy tech? In the financial industry XML is used extensively. For example, FpML underpins a massive part of global finance, and it is a regularly updated standard. COBOL has been superceded by other languages; I'm not aware of any technology that can replace the XML-based FpML schema.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#149

Post by skc » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 9:37 AM UTC

foepys wrote: post #39

WinForms and its Visual Studio designer are still broken, WPF is still riddled with bugs and was declared obsolete in ~2017 in favor of UWP, UWP is marked obsolete in favor of WinUI, and WinUI's OSS release was postponed just two days ago because it's not ready. Microsoft is marketing .NET 6 as the replacement for .NET Framework but you still cannot properly do desktop UI with it. I honestly don't understand why they…

Sign of the times. In the last 5 or so years working as a consultant for large corporates I can't recall ever having to work on new desktop app/features. Everything is moving to the web even for internal uses so I'm not surprised that desktop app dev frameworks are collateral damage somewhat.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#150

Post by dgellow » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 9:42 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #137

dgellow wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? WPF is still supported and a viable way to implement UI components. Same for WinForms. UWP never replaced them. What they are doing with WinApp SDK and WinUI is to extract features that were packaged with UWP to make them available to any type of Windows application. Xamarin is also still a thing, MAUI will be a thing in the future, Uno is another option, Avalon too. There is a lot of opti…

While true in spirit, the GitHub and developer voice tickets kind of show the actual state of affairs, which kind of saddens me. It feels like desktop teams are running into all possible solutions to see what sticks, instead of fixing what we had.

I would agree with your last sentence, that's a very Microsoft way to handle things: "Hey, look at all of this! You can implement your application USING YOUR FAVORITE TOOLS! Isn't that great that we give you the opportunity to evaluate 36 different framework to see which one is THE BEST for your UNIQUE situation?!".

It's a complete mess and the whole thing feels direction-less but I cannot agree that no good tool exist to implement GUI.

I'm still confused by their React Native for Windows. Very happy to see development in this area, React Native is a fantastic framework, but I cannot understand if it is a toy or something they actually want to commit too. Blazor Desktop is also really confusing and makes no sense IMHO.