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Performance Improvements in .NET 6

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#121

Post by lbriner »

zigzag312 wrote: post #117
smackeyacky wrote: post #94

I'm going to pile in too late and sing the virtues of .NET core or whatever its called now. Deployment of web apps to containers is a breeze, the language is modern feeling. Roslyn is about the most awesome thing I have played with. Razor pages are a breeze compared to the giant piles of dependency hell that client side SPAs or node have become. It feels lean and mean and I can be sitting at a debian box or a windows…

All upcoming UI frameworks by MS are still hung up on XAML. I get that their existing userbase is heavily invested in XAML, but in my experience XAML doesn't add much value, just unnecessarily layer of complexity, that lacks expressiveness of a programming language and makes interoperability between UI and code more convoluted. There is some "experimental" support for code based UI composition in MAUI, but since XAML…

I would question how invested the existing customers are in XAML. I have worked at about 6 companies that all use .Net exclusively and I don't think we used XAML once except for maybe an experiment or PoC.

I think the XAML stuff relates more to trying to make things move between devices more easily by using generic ideas like stretching, grid layouts, flows etc. I guess MS are still holding onto the write-once use anywhere ideal which has never made it particularly well in any stack.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#122

Post by int_19h »

qwertox wrote: post #115
addicted wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UI story on Windows is completely broken but that has been the case forever. Has MS basically released anything sustainable on the UI side since MFC? It feels like they’ve constantly provided a new new replacement every few years that replaced the new replacement from a few years ago since then.

WinForms was definitely very fun to code with when I used it around 10 years ago. MFC on the other hand was a real pain. Some strange thing came afterwards which I never understood why, but then I already moved into Backend/HTML/JS. Is WinForms really something that is outdated? Or is this new thing one just their attempt at unifying OS and Mobile UIs? I think Windows 10 uses this new framework and I absolutely disli…

It's not easy to write good reflowing UI in WinForms. You have anchors, but they aren't enough for the more complex layouts. And you have actual layouts, but it's a real pain to set up anything non-trivial with them.

However, there's also WPF. Which is also kinda in the same spot in terms of support and future development, but it's a lot more modern and flexible compared to WinForms.

As for MFC, the main reason why it's such a pain is because it's a relatively thin abstraction layer over Win32, and it doesn't even try to hide most of that underlying complexity (or limitations)

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#123

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

porker wrote: post #104
5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In C# it can be overloaded. I know it only confirms your point, but Rider highlights the overloaded operators so you spot them right away. After working with dotnet for pretty long time and coming to Java world (mostly Spring with Kotlin), I was extremely disappointed to find there's no real alternative to LINQ. What's your solution to this common problem: you have a table (HTML table) with 30 different filters, you…

> With LINQ and EF, it's very easy to do I know of LINQ, but what's EF?

EF = Entity Framework. (1)

It's an ORM (Object-rational Mapper) for querying SQL databases into objects. Somewhat the same space as "Hibernate" in Java. (2)

Some prefer e.g. Dapper (3) as it's much more light-weight. EF is very much a big thing, but some people need and want that.

1) https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/ef/

2) https://hibernate.org/

3) https://dapper-tutorial.net/

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#124

Post by stinos »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #91
tomnipotent wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a UI story that doesn't suck?

I don't think anybody is expecting perfection. Personal I just don't want so much needless churn, especially on the .Net side. WPF in particular seemed to offer so much promise but was abandoned at birth. I now treat UI stuff from Microsoft the same way I treat services from Google, something to be avoided because it will probably be abandoned within a short period.

There's a major difference though: when Google abandons a service it is gone and you have to look for an alternative. When Microsoft 'abandons' WPF your 15 old application still builds and runs today and receives occasional updates like proper HDPI support.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#125

Post by pjmlp »

whoknowswhat11 wrote: post #73
foepys wrote: post #39

WinForms and its Visual Studio designer are still broken, WPF is still riddled with bugs and was declared obsolete in ~2017 in favor of UWP, UWP is marked obsolete in favor of WinUI, and WinUI's OSS release was postponed just two days ago because it's not ready. Microsoft is marketing .NET 6 as the replacement for .NET Framework but you still cannot properly do desktop UI with it. I honestly don't understand why they…

Couldn't agree more. Microsoft lost their minds on the UI / desktop app side - which was a core strength (historically). WinForms was fine / great / amazing. 90% of business / line apps could be handled with it. I have no idea how / why it's taken them so long and they STILL have not gotten their replacement story straight for it and they regressed the designer in .NET. Did they just lose their minds there? Hire a bu…

Easy, they did to .NET the same as IE.

When Sinosfky and his team, brought .NET ideas to COM via WinRT, which was kind of Ext-VOS revival anyway, I bet they fired everyone on Forms and WPF, or moved to other teams.

Otherwise how to justify they had to ramp up Forms and WPF teams again, and we have already seen several PMs take ownership of the projects since Core started.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#126

Post by int_19h »

ryanjshaw wrote: post #118
vp8989 wrote: post #5

Making JIT 4% (or whatever) faster is cool but it would probably have higher ROI for the .NET ecosystem if Microsoft assigned some of these high caliber people to instead work on improving or simply rewriting some of the atrocious open source libraries that are available. Would you rather have an A language/runtime with a D open source ecosystem or a B for both?

Agreed. It's ridiculous that .NET still doesn't have XPath 2 support after so many years. I really wish they'd hire a PM with enterprise experience, as they seem heavily focused on public facing web technologies e.g. the new native JSON serializer has all kinds of weird limitations based on 'security risks' that don't actually exist outside of public facing websites.

XSLT/XPath/XQuery 2.0+ has little first party support in general, in all programming ecosystems that I can think of. I think the problem is that it's all much more complicated than the originals, and meanwhile XML has become legacy tech - not that it's going away anytime soon, but it's kind of like the COBOL of data.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#127

Post by lloydatkinson »

pjmlp wrote: post #95
smackeyacky wrote: post #94

I'm going to pile in too late and sing the virtues of .NET core or whatever its called now. Deployment of web apps to containers is a breeze, the language is modern feeling. Roslyn is about the most awesome thing I have played with. Razor pages are a breeze compared to the giant piles of dependency hell that client side SPAs or node have become. It feels lean and mean and I can be sitting at a debian box or a windows…

Maui is built on top of UWP, in what concerns Windows backend. Have to agree with the desktop development chaos, look like not wanting to take an hard decision. Forms and WPF continue, because they are the golden eggs, the ones that most .NET desktop devs actually care about. WinUI looks like last attempt to rescue UWP, while at the same time in typical Microsoft fashion ignoring the tooling issues surrounding .NET N…

> Maui is built on top of UWP, in what concerns Windows backend.

No it is not, how is that going to work on Mac? It is it's own thing, and on Windows it will use WinUI not UWP.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#128

Post by pjmlp »

zeroc8 wrote: post #102
pjmlp wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maui is built on top of UWP, in what concerns Windows backend. Have to agree with the desktop development chaos, look like not wanting to take an hard decision. Forms and WPF continue, because they are the golden eggs, the ones that most .NET desktop devs actually care about. WinUI looks like last attempt to rescue UWP, while at the same time in typical Microsoft fashion ignoring the tooling issues surrounding .NET N…

I think React has shown how UIs can be done in a better way. That's why we have Flutter, Jetpack Compose and SwiftUI now.

React is UI fashion, uses lots of memory, stresses the GC in managed languages and it was already present in Haskell, it just lacked JavaScript way of pushing frameworks.

JetPack Compose was created by React devs, and Swift UI still pales in capabilities to AppKit. Listen to this week rant on Apple's UI Frameworks at ATP podcast.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#129

Post by tester34 »

zigzag312 wrote: post #117
smackeyacky wrote: post #94

I'm going to pile in too late and sing the virtues of .NET core or whatever its called now. Deployment of web apps to containers is a breeze, the language is modern feeling. Roslyn is about the most awesome thing I have played with. Razor pages are a breeze compared to the giant piles of dependency hell that client side SPAs or node have become. It feels lean and mean and I can be sitting at a debian box or a windows…

All upcoming UI frameworks by MS are still hung up on XAML. I get that their existing userbase is heavily invested in XAML, but in my experience XAML doesn't add much value, just unnecessarily layer of complexity, that lacks expressiveness of a programming language and makes interoperability between UI and code more convoluted. There is some "experimental" support for code based UI composition in MAUI, but since XAML…

What's wrong with XAML and what could have replace it?

Maybe HTML?

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 6

#130

Post by Xevi »

tester34 wrote: post #129
zigzag312 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All upcoming UI frameworks by MS are still hung up on XAML. I get that their existing userbase is heavily invested in XAML, but in my experience XAML doesn't add much value, just unnecessarily layer of complexity, that lacks expressiveness of a programming language and makes interoperability between UI and code more convoluted. There is some "experimental" support for code based UI composition in MAUI, but since XAML…

What's wrong with XAML and what could have replace it? Maybe HTML?

I haven't used it that much, but from my experience it was incredibly difficult/verbose to create any custom designs, compared to HTML/CSS. It put me off so much that I just picked another language to develop my applications in.
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