Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#141

Post by thricedotted » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 6:31 PM UTC

Klonoar wrote: post #139

Perceval wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls inter…

Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek. Popularity and clique mentality tends to be much more of an issue in female circles than with males. I would say that, if one were to assume either sex will get un…

Exactly the point I wanted to make, but pithier. Kudos.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#142

Post by sequoia » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 6:32 PM UTC

jackpirate wrote: post #131

alex_c wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discussion, or circle jerk? I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.

Is there a polite way to say "circle jerk"? I've often found myself wanting to convey the idea without sounding so crass.

"A small group of gentlemen working separately to achieve a common goal"

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#143

Post by ericb » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 6:41 PM UTC

mynameishere wrote: post #36

I have seen precisely zero evidence of any "sexism" in the software industry. Maybe I'm going to the wrong conferences but this bullshit is getting old.

Clearly your anecdotal evidence provides incontrovertible proof--proof enough to declare this "bullshit."

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#144

Post by rokhayakebe » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 6:42 PM UTC

uncr3ative wrote: post #121

rokhayakebe wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The keyword is here is perhaps . What are these obstacles that you speak off?

Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I w…

rated various women. From my experience women rate other women even more so then we do (so you are different in this manner), and most women I talk to know shit more about sports than I ever will. Awkwardness isn't an obstacle, it's an inconvenience. You are here, so other women can do the same.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#145

Post by romey » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 6:51 PM UTC

cheez wrote: post #102

ryandvm wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy. Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electro…

I could say the same things (in general) about guys who are deeply interested in science and tech:

Toddler/Preschool: Gifts of balls, sports cards, action figures, etc.

School/Teenager: Come on bro, get off the computer and play some sportsball! Don't be a nerd! Come on bro, lets watch football and drink beer!

Even on TV, when they show engineers and scientists, they are almost never cool or desirable.

Basically, I seriously doubt that anyone becomes an engineer because it's the "cool" thing to do, or in any way socially optimal; it seems to be based more on a child's innate proclivities, and a lot to do with the type of parents they have. To me, this seems to be the same problem that has many asking "Why aren't there more black engineers?" Well, in many cases, it's simply because the parents of kids who would become engineers don't have the resource, interest, or knowledge of how to foster these abilities.

I applaud you on encouraging your daughter's interests. With more parents like you, we'll surely see the a more diverse field in the future.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#146

Post by thricedotted » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

michaelcampbell wrote: post #137

uncr3ative wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I w…

So... "obstacle" one is you're embarrassed by your gender? What's the next one?

...I don't know how to put this more clearly than uncr3ative already did, but both of the responses to that post have basically demonstrated exactly why we feel the way we do when we walk into a classroom dominated by men.

It's not embarrassment. It's the fact that you walk in and you are already seen as the "other", different from them. The fact that they can be talking about you as if you're an The fact that they will be talking about their interests which might not coincide with yours (but oftentimes coincide with you and people of your sex), and so you're not sure how to broach conversation with them. The fact that you feel like an intruder, unwanted or invisible, because you're not in ~the clique~ and therefore shouldn't be there.

The fact that somebody would respond to this, and put quotes around "obstacle", because how could any of those things be an obstacle at all?

I'm sorry that your level of privilege has never allowed you to savor the harsh taste of true intimidation at some point in your life.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#147

Post by xnxn » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:05 PM UTC

jackpirate wrote: post #131

alex_c wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discussion, or circle jerk? I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.

Is there a polite way to say "circle jerk"? I've often found myself wanting to convey the idea without sounding so crass.

Perhaps "groupthink"?

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#148

Post by michaelcampbell » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:06 PM UTC

thricedotted wrote: post #146

michaelcampbell wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... "obstacle" one is you're embarrassed by your gender? What's the next one?

...I don't know how to put this more clearly than uncr3ative already did, but both of the responses to that post have basically demonstrated exactly why we feel the way we do when we walk into a classroom dominated by men. It's not embarrassment. It's the fact that you walk in and you are already seen as the "other", different from them. The fact that they can be talking about you as if you're an The fact that they w…

You presume that you are prejudged, and that's bad, and then come out with something like this?

> I'm sorry that your level of privilege has never allowed you to savor the harsh taste of true intimidation at some point in your life.

Seriously?

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#149

Post by kstenerud » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:19 PM UTC

michaelchisari wrote: post #130

peterwwillis wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry my post was too long to read, but I specifically mentioned speaking up several times. Pushing for change within the industry is different than just speaking up when an asshat makes a sexist comment.

I read your post, which is why I was confused about your knee-jerk reaction, which was based on an over-interpretation of what I was advocating. If someone is defensive, or even just stays silent, when sexist and alienating behavior occurs, then that person can't complain much if people see them as complicit. If they don't want to be tarred with that brush, then they should speak out against it, and work to make the…

Therein lies the problem. I haven't seen sexism in the workplace. I'd certainly condemn it if I did, but I haven't. Is that still not enough? Should I carry around a placard denouncing the sexists everywhere I go?

Should I just take the word of someone who got burned by something that there's a huge problem, without anything beyond anecdotal evidence to back up the claim?

Should I do the same for racists? How about homophobes? How about bullies? How about people who leave stuff to rot in the communal fridge?

Am I anti-gay because I don't attend gay rallies? Am I complicit in animal cruelty because I don't volunteer for the SPCA? Am I anti-veteran because I don't help out at the local homeless shelter?

Come to my workplace and point out the sexism, and I'll act to stop it. Otherwise, don't paint me with your brush.

This whole "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" attitude is getting old.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#150

Post by michaelchisari » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 8:05 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #149

michaelchisari wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read your post, which is why I was confused about your knee-jerk reaction, which was based on an over-interpretation of what I was advocating. If someone is defensive, or even just stays silent, when sexist and alienating behavior occurs, then that person can't complain much if people see them as complicit. If they don't want to be tarred with that brush, then they should speak out against it, and work to make the…

Therein lies the problem. I haven't seen sexism in the workplace. I'd certainly condemn it if I did, but I haven't. Is that still not enough? Should I carry around a placard denouncing the sexists everywhere I go? Should I just take the word of someone who got burned by something that there's a huge problem, without anything beyond anecdotal evidence to back up the claim? Should I do the same for racists? How about h…

Are you not involved in communities such as Hacker News? You don't exactly have to hunt for places where working against sexism could be helpful, you can do it from the comfort of your own home. We live in an online world, and in our industry, our culture is reflected and built online as much as in real life. You don't have to wait for things to show up on your doorstep.

Most importantly, though, just because you haven't seen sexism in the workplace, doesn't mean it hasn't existed. A little bit of education never hurts anyone, and being able to better identify what is problematic might show you that things are not as squeaky clean as you thought.