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A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

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Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where the power comes from is easy: the wind gets slowed down. Of course the nature of wind is such that you could never measure this, but the point is that when the propellor pushes against the air, that air's velocity relative to the ground is decreased while the vehicle's is increased. The vehicle leaves behind it an imperceptible region of less-energetic air and takes that energy with it.

Now I think I'm beginning to understand... At first, wind propels the vehicle, moving it forward and turning its wheels. Its wheels turn the propeller which slows down the air, even the air in front of it. The energy lost by the air is now the energy that moves the vehicle! Indeed! There is no requirement that the vehicle must be slower than the wind! I think understood it!!!

Ah, but not so fast. It actually depends on your frame of reference.

Suppose the vehicle is facing the +x direction. Suppose the wind is travelling at +10m/s relative to the ground. Suppose the (experimentally determined) maximum velocity of the vehicle under these conditions is +12m/s. Now consider an inertial reference frame which, compared to the ground's reference frame, is moving at +11m/s. (I.e., pick the frame in which the ground moves at -11m/s.) Now let the vehicle run. There will come an instant when the vehicle is stationary in this reference frame (when the vehicle has accelerated to +11m/s relative to the ground, not yet having reached its maximum velocity).

Consider the instantaneous change in kinetic energy at this instant. The air about to be pushed by the propeller has velocity -1m/s and will accelerate in the -x direction. The vehicle has velocity 0m/s and will accelerate in the +x direction. In both cases, the kinetic energy is actually increasing! So in this frame, where does the increasing kinetic energy of the air-vehicle system come from?!

The answer is the ground. It has velocity -11m/s. When it pushes against the contact point of the wheels, it is therefore pushing the contact point in the -x direction. But this means the contact point is pushing against the ground in the +x direction. And therefore the ground is undergoing a minuscule +x acceleration. That acceleration is therefore decreasing the kinetic energy of the ground — by a lot, because of the mass factor.

And this is why we say the energy is derived from the difference in velocity between the ground and the wind — because depending on your inertial reference frame, the kinetic energy might be coming from one or the other. In the frame of reference of the vehicle, it starts out coming from both, but when the (relative) direction of the wind shifts (so that relative to the ground the vehicle is travelling faster than the wind), the kinetic energy starts coming from the ground only, and the vehicle is forced to transmit some of it to the air to keep moving. But this might actually be the nicest explanation of how the vehicle outpaces the wind: in the faster-than-the-wind regime, the vehicle is transmitting energy from the ground into the air — which is exactly what you would expect to happen, given the mechanical linkage between the wheels and the propeller! — but some of this energy bleeds off into increasing the velocity of the vehicle itself, because it's on wheels and that's what happens when wheeled vehicles push against something behind them, no matter what the ground happens to be doing (such as moving backwards like a treadmill, in this frame of reference).

Disclaimer: I did not do well in college-level Mechanics. But I think I have convinced myself of the above explanation, just barely.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#142

> The secret to Blackbird, Cavallaro explained, is that once the wind gets the vehicle going, its wheels start to turn the propeller blades — they're connected to the blades by a chain. As the vehicle speeds up, its wheels turn the propeller faster and faster. The propeller blades, in turn, act as a fan, pushing more air behind the land yacht and thrusting it forward. That's a terrible explanation - no wonder people…

You're right that it falls far short, but it corrects one of the fundamental misunderstandings many people have about the vehicle: the wind does not spin the propeller, the wheels do.

Gravity does

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#143

> The secret to Blackbird, Cavallaro explained, is that once the wind gets the vehicle going, its wheels start to turn the propeller blades — they're connected to the blades by a chain. As the vehicle speeds up, its wheels turn the propeller faster and faster. The propeller blades, in turn, act as a fan, pushing more air behind the land yacht and thrusting it forward. That's a terrible explanation - no wonder people…

It’s really not that complicated - wind speed is not the same as energy. The propellor is a device that pushes against the air to move forward, it takes energy from the wind, produces a force, and the force produces momentum in the vehicle. We know that a stationary turbine can continually take power from the wind. When that wind energy is stored in a battery it can power your car much faster than the wind. This just…

Sailboats can run faster than the wind because of lift (which is not involved here), but not when running away from the wind

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point, but the title and first paragraphs try to paint the picture of a "funky science" youtuber betting a UCLA physicist $10k and winning (which for me is very different to the truth: UCLA physicist bets another physicist $10k and loses)

He did study Physics but his main field is science education, I think it's fair to assume a physics professor would know a bit more. I also think it's a bit of your own preconceived notion at play here assuming that calling someone a "Youtuber" is meant as a negative. This is equivalent to saying "Science communicator vs physics professor", which is a fair portrayal.

I really don't think being called a Youtuber is meant as negative. I take issue with how the writer chose to present this story. If this was about the intricacies of ad revenue on YouTube for example, great, no need to specify he also has a physics degree. But I'm disappointed to see them paint him as just a guy who "likes to break down funky science" (and made 10k off a physicist) when he is more than that, with relevance to the actual story. For someone who doesn't know his work, he might as well be one of the guys burning snow with lighters a few months ago to prove its fake snow...

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#145
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 100 pound vehicle also has a much larger cross section to the wind. And its propeller is further off the ground, so it's getting cleaner wind than the little model version. I can get a boat that weighs more and has less sail area going on less wind than that. And that thing has to be dragged through the water on top of everything else.

In the water, there is no static friction and no velocity-independent friction. If you push a floating boat, it moves.

Fair point. Though, I would guess that Blackbird's internal mechanisms are well-enough engineered that it has very, very little static friction where it counts.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s really not that complicated - wind speed is not the same as energy. The propellor is a device that pushes against the air to move forward, it takes energy from the wind, produces a force, and the force produces momentum in the vehicle. We know that a stationary turbine can continually take power from the wind. When that wind energy is stored in a battery it can power your car much faster than the wind. This just…

Sailboats can run faster than the wind because of lift (which is not involved here), but not when running away from the wind

the blades move sideways

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#147
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sailboats can run faster than the wind because of lift (which is not involved here), but not when running away from the wind

the blades move sideways

if it sails away from the wind, the lift is pushing it sideways, not forward

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#150
I think I have an analogy that actually explains how this works.

Imagine one of those people-mover walkways like they have at the airport. Standing next to it on a skateboard, you grab the handrail. Even though the skateboard has energy loss to friction, you go exactly as fast as the handrail.

Now imagine you put a little electric generator in the wheels of the skateboard. Now, not only are you moving at the speed of the handrail, you're also generating some electric power, sourced from the handrail.

Now, instead of grabbing the handrail with your hand, yo hold another electric skateboard, and use the power from your feet's skateboard to power that, so you are actually being pulled along the handrail. You'd be inching along the handrail, going faster than it.

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