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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#141

Post by cosmojg »

acituan wrote: post #104
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

I thought Anna Vanbellinghen was very well said. It's not about questioning someone's identity, or their right to live openly. But this is about acknowledging physical reality. One thing I'd like to add is that this is, by definition, a hard problem . The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. Anyone who says that the "other side" in this situation (regardless of which…

> The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. I was with you until this statement. Sex is a millions-of-years-old discrete variable; it depends on whether you could produce the bigger gamete (called egg) or the smaller one (sperm). Gender is a continuous variable with a strongly bimodal distribution.

Your definition fails to account for intersex and infertile people.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#142

Post by gameman144 »

travisgriggs wrote: post #134

Spectator Sports: the act of deriving hope, happiness, failure, elation, frustration, and other emotions from the actions of others. See also: performing arts. Competitive Sport: the act of determining your performance and subsequent identity/categorization by arbitrary comparison with other arbitrary individuals. Here's an idea. Let's just let weightlifters lift weights. They can compare themselves to their previous…

This is a great idea in theory, but human nature is a pretty strong driver to be the best, fastest, strongest, and winningest when competing against others. Competition is hard-wired into us, and I'm skeptical that systems that strip that out will be viable or entertaining in the long term.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#143

Post by makeworld »

I encourage anyone interested in this subject to read this[0] article, it is a comprehensive analysis of the subject. If not the whole thing, at least the final sections "Recommendations and Conclusions" and "Executive Summary". It really underlines how complex this is.

[0]: https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gend...

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#144

Post by zthrowaway »

throw0101a wrote: post #56
jml7c5 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At its very core, the exclusion is seen as a form of "well you're not really a woman". I could write more on the arguments both sides present, but that's the crux of it.

> At its very core, the exclusion is seen as a form of "well you're not really a woman". For the supporters of trans-women being women, is there a canonical / generally accepted list of criteria which would classify people "objectively" as a woman? If there is such a thing as a group of people that can be called "women", how would membership in that group be established? I.e., what really is a woman?

Pretty easy to answer. A women is someone who can naturally create a child inside of them, or naturally possesses the organs to do so.

It’s amazing our collective intelligence has dropped this far. We solved this problem quite a long time ago…

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#145

Post by Zababa »

ALittleLight wrote: post #132
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

I thought Anna Vanbellinghen was very well said. It's not about questioning someone's identity, or their right to live openly. But this is about acknowledging physical reality. One thing I'd like to add is that this is, by definition, a hard problem . The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. Anyone who says that the "other side" in this situation (regardless of which…

In my opinion people often speak incoherently on this topic because they are trying to be politically correct. Vanbellinghen is asserting that Hubbard should not compete as a woman. Hubbard identifies as a woman. In what way is Vanbellinghen not questioning Hubbard's identity? It is as if "I am not questioning your identity" is a magic spell that must be chanted prior to doing exactly that so you don't get in trouble…

> In what way is Vanbellinghen not questioning Hubbard's identity?

Not all women are allowed to participate in powerlifting competitions. For example, people not qualified couldn't. People that are known steroids abusers couldn't. That doesn't make them less women.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#146

Post by chitowneats »

jp0d wrote: post #113

This is a very controversial topic. Many have spoken about it at length. I personally believe it's not fair for women in athletics. There are several excellent suggestions/solutions discussed on this thread. I feel like there needs to be another category which would include people who're naturally male/female/others and/or identify as something/someone else. And keep the existing male and female categories as they ar…

It doesn't go without saying. Which is why you said it. The pro-trans movement starts from the assumption that any disagreement with their ideology is "harm". They've bullied everyone into accepting what is transparently a ridiculous situation; often by alleging bad faith. I'm very happy to see someone from professional women's weightlifting refer to this as a "bad joke".

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#148

Post by ffggvv »

makeworld wrote: post #133
nimbleal wrote: post #126

I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the term…

Taking hormone therapy dramatically changes your body, making using just your sex also problematic. It's a complex subject. Here's the best article I've found on it: https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gend...

yeah but it doesn’t make your body exactly like someone with different chromosomes than you that lived with that hormone set their entire life through puberty etc, and with a different bone structure and musculature

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#149

Post by vore »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #93
trainsplanes wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender. Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian su…

It is common to hear a transwoman claim (indeed, even occasionally here on HN) that anything other than recognizing them as equal to ciswomen is an act of violence and prejudice against them, and at worst, they utter some invective about “TERFs”. So, suggesting the recognition of a new gender is unlikely to satisfy at least those strident individuals.

From first principles, transwomen feel like they should be just as much of a woman born biologically female, but they just happened to be born biologically male. This dysphoria causes a great deal of angst and I don't think the benefits of othering them as any kind of second-class woman can outweigh that.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#150

Post by trainsplanes »

Zababa wrote: post #140
trainsplanes wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I think for people today it's absolutely unacceptable. There's a need to fight oppression and gain acceptance. But once nobody cares anymore and nobody is bothered by the existence of trans people, I wonder if that's when it'll settle into a separate gender. Things like the issue in this topic with imbalance in sports and other areas might eventually result in another change in social structures outside of a st…

I don't think this is about external acceptance, but more about internal acceptance. To take an extreme example: If you're suffering heavily from gender dysphoria, decide to transition to female, change absolutely nothing to your life and just try to convince yourself that you're just a women who expresses her gender differently, most of the time the dysphoria will stay here. Of course as always: there are lots of tr…

An oft-repeated mantra is also that "gender is a social construct." I think up until now, American society has for the most part retained some pretty strict images of gender roles and stereotypes. Turn on a TV and it's bumbling, fat father and smart, responsible wife or buff, rugged masculine hero and sexy seductress on nearly every channel. Not much of a middle in the public eye.

Now that it's being normalized that you don't have to be in either of those groups or even try to be anything like them, kids a generation from now might grow up with a different standard. Plus, honestly, despite what people try to say, kids put things into distinct groups. With a growing presence of trans people in media, I do wonder whether kids will grow up with the idea that "this is fine, but different." The trans people simply being the male/female gender they identify as is a social thing that we're taught to accept, which could very well change because the next generation doesn't think of it that way anymore.

See also: America's formerly strict ideas of race. Not long ago, you were white, black, or asian and society decided what you were. Now we accept that there are in betweens and people outside those labels, and none of them are bad identities to have.

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