Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

insidethegames.biz

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 643 posts

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#131

Post by trainsplanes »

Zababa wrote: post #95
trainsplanes wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender. Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian su…

I wonder about that. From what I've understood while talking to trans people and reading what they wrote (so a small sample that's probably biased), the place in the society associated with their gender (the one they transitionned into) is really important. For example, in my experience, trans women want to be recognized as women and live mostly the same as cis women. I first encountered this because I was puzzled as…

Yeah. I think for people today it's absolutely unacceptable. There's a need to fight oppression and gain acceptance.

But once nobody cares anymore and nobody is bothered by the existence of trans people, I wonder if that's when it'll settle into a separate gender. Things like the issue in this topic with imbalance in sports and other areas might eventually result in another change in social structures outside of a strictly binary system.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#132

Post by ALittleLight »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

I thought Anna Vanbellinghen was very well said. It's not about questioning someone's identity, or their right to live openly. But this is about acknowledging physical reality. One thing I'd like to add is that this is, by definition, a hard problem . The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. Anyone who says that the "other side" in this situation (regardless of which…

In my opinion people often speak incoherently on this topic because they are trying to be politically correct. Vanbellinghen is asserting that Hubbard should not compete as a woman. Hubbard identifies as a woman. In what way is Vanbellinghen not questioning Hubbard's identity? It is as if "I am not questioning your identity" is a magic spell that must be chanted prior to doing exactly that so you don't get in trouble. If Hubbard is a woman, then it is completely appropriate for Hubbard to compete as a woman, and if not, then not.

It is also incorrect to describe sex as a continuum. On a continuum we can increase or decrease a value. The number line, for example, is a continuum. We can find the integer immediately larger or smaller than a given integer. It would be incoherent to pick a woman and ask who is incrementally more feminine than her or incrementally less. We can't sort people by how male they are. I think "bimodal distribution" is a more apt description than continuous or continuum.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#133

Post by makeworld »

nimbleal wrote: post #126

I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the term…

Taking hormone therapy dramatically changes your body, making using just your sex also problematic. It's a complex subject. Here's the best article I've found on it: https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gend...

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#134

Post by travisgriggs »

Spectator Sports: the act of deriving hope, happiness, failure, elation, frustration, and other emotions from the actions of others. See also: performing arts.

Competitive Sport: the act of determining your performance and subsequent identity/categorization by arbitrary comparison with other arbitrary individuals.

Here's an idea. Let's just let weightlifters lift weights. They can compare themselves to their previous efforts and broadcast their successes by beating their own PRs. If people want to find some sort of vicarious happiness from observing this process, set up (monetize) their efforts with something like Twitch.

For every thousand hacking at the leaves...

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#136

Post by makeworld »

acituan wrote: post #104
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

I thought Anna Vanbellinghen was very well said. It's not about questioning someone's identity, or their right to live openly. But this is about acknowledging physical reality. One thing I'd like to add is that this is, by definition, a hard problem . The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. Anyone who says that the "other side" in this situation (regardless of which…

> The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. I was with you until this statement. Sex is a millions-of-years-old discrete variable; it depends on whether you could produce the bigger gamete (called egg) or the smaller one (sperm). Gender is a continuous variable with a strongly bimodal distribution.

Sex is also more than just binary.

https://static.scientificamerican.com/sciam/assets/File/051_...

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/sa-visual/visualizing-s...

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#137

Post by kbelder »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #64
ape4 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gender" is larger than biological sex - a distinction that normally doesn't matter. Wikipedia: Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, femininity and masculinity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex, sex-based social structures (i.e., gender roles), or gender identity.

I don’t know if that’s true or not. I know a lot of what you are saying first came from John William Money who… has a actually pretty evil history that should make everyone reevaluate the concepts [0]. I think the simple answer is we don’t know. We don’t know if you are right, we don’t know lots. But one thing we definitely do know is XY humans have more muscle mass and bone density on average than XX humans. It’s pr…

This is a good example of how the popular narrative of the right being anti-science is wrong. Both 'sides' are absolutely anti-science on any topic where the science would be an uncomfortable truth for them.

Republicans can't do climatology; Democrats can't do biology.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#138

Post by jeremysalwen »

acituan wrote: post #104
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

I thought Anna Vanbellinghen was very well said. It's not about questioning someone's identity, or their right to live openly. But this is about acknowledging physical reality. One thing I'd like to add is that this is, by definition, a hard problem . The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. Anyone who says that the "other side" in this situation (regardless of which…

> The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. I was with you until this statement. Sex is a millions-of-years-old discrete variable; it depends on whether you could produce the bigger gamete (called egg) or the smaller one (sperm). Gender is a continuous variable with a strongly bimodal distribution.

No, as OP said, it is a continuum. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrom..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex. It is just very strongly bimodal (even more strongly than gender).

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#139

Post by beerandt »

rantwasp wrote: post #106
hypnoscripto wrote: post #92

If this is an issue for all MTF weightlifters, would it be reasonable to disqualify someone only if they had previously competed at the same level as a male?

i don’t think you need to have competed before to have a huge advantage induced by hormones that were normally biologically there. The real question is: where do we draw the line? if a female athlete injects herself with hormones that give her an unfair advantage should this be considered cheating and be grounds for disqualification?

No- but you do see a similar restriction with pro athletes not being able to play as an amateur, partially due to the experience of competing at a higher level.

This isn't that different.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#140

Post by Zababa »

trainsplanes wrote: post #131
Zababa wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder about that. From what I've understood while talking to trans people and reading what they wrote (so a small sample that's probably biased), the place in the society associated with their gender (the one they transitionned into) is really important. For example, in my experience, trans women want to be recognized as women and live mostly the same as cis women. I first encountered this because I was puzzled as…

Yeah. I think for people today it's absolutely unacceptable. There's a need to fight oppression and gain acceptance. But once nobody cares anymore and nobody is bothered by the existence of trans people, I wonder if that's when it'll settle into a separate gender. Things like the issue in this topic with imbalance in sports and other areas might eventually result in another change in social structures outside of a st…

I don't think this is about external acceptance, but more about internal acceptance. To take an extreme example: If you're suffering heavily from gender dysphoria, decide to transition to female, change absolutely nothing to your life and just try to convince yourself that you're just a women who expresses her gender differently, most of the time the dysphoria will stay here. Of course as always: there are lots of trans people and they're all individuals with their own desires and issues so this is an oversimplification. But I've been many time surprised by their desire to fit in traditional gender roles.
Post reply on HN