Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office • Hacker News Board

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#141

Post by bluefirebrand » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #137

bluefirebrand wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strikes me as a very romantic view of what offices are. Maybe it is possible for an office to be like this, but I would suspect that it is an exceptional case. Mostly offices are where people go to do sufficient work to get paid, and the only real goal coworkers have in common there is a desire to receive paycheques and make sure the company doesn't go under so they can continue receiving paycheques. If people d…

I wasn't talking about what all offices are , but about what some of them can be. It is clear that many offices are dull hives that suck the life out of their occupants. But why be in such office? Why should someone have a job just to get a paycheck, getting miserable in return? There are always options. To look at it from a different side, office is a tool, which, used correctly, can give a tremendous boost to produ…

Again, this strikes me as an extremely romanticized view of life and employment.

> Why should someone have a job just to get a paycheck

Because we need some amount of money to survive in our society and we need lots of it to thrive in our society.

> There are always options.

Not really. There are always options if you have highly in demand skills with no external responsibilities that prevent you from relocating to better work or risking a job change.

Most average office workers cannot risk a job change (because job changes ARE risky) due to family or other responsibilities. They also don't possess terribly in-demand skills.

> office is a tool, which, used correctly, can give a tremendous boost to productivity

This is employer talk. It's unclear to me why a worker should care about their productivity more than their paycheque, or their comfort, or their time spent commuting.

> It has natural advantage - like physical proximity between people

This has just as much potential to hurt productivity because the #1 timewaster at offices is other people.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#142

Post by entropyie » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #108

mywittyname wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wait for the mass exodus. Remote work is turning out to be a requirement for hiring people. So once the company starts bleeding (good) people who find remote jobs with other companies, they are going to be difficult/impossible to replace. At some point, the execs will have to suck it up and offer remote work.

I hear Dublin is already draining and the real estate market folding. The latter a very good thing for non-expats of course.

Nope, maybe a 2% drop in prices from the peak, rent still crazy expensive and not falling, once the government remove rent freezes, it will go up again. Anecdotally a few non Irish techies are leaving but it won't be enough to affect house prices and there are 10k people waiting to buy behind them.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#143

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

bluefirebrand wrote: post #141

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't talking about what all offices are , but about what some of them can be. It is clear that many offices are dull hives that suck the life out of their occupants. But why be in such office? Why should someone have a job just to get a paycheck, getting miserable in return? There are always options. To look at it from a different side, office is a tool, which, used correctly, can give a tremendous boost to produ…

Again, this strikes me as an extremely romanticized view of life and employment. > Why should someone have a job just to get a paycheck Because we need some amount of money to survive in our society and we need lots of it to thrive in our society. > There are always options. Not really. There are always options if you have highly in demand skills with no external responsibilities that prevent you from relocating to b…

> They also don't possess terribly in-demand skills.

Such workers shouldn't be calling BS on their leaders on return to offices, they should keep their heads down and do as they told.

Regarding your points about needing money, the audience here is blessed to be in such high demand, that they can freely choose projects and leadership they like. We have just one life, why earn money doing something that you don't love?

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#144

Post by Hypergraphe » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

Yeah well, I think it depends of your workplace. I would never want to trade back my quiet home office with a view and my high end gear for my company's fully crowded and super loud openspace and the low cost gear waiting for me at my desk. I don't want to waste my time commuting anymore as it doesnt make any sense. But I admit that I miss eating lunch with some of my coworkers or taking a cofee break with them.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#145

Post by Hypergraphe » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

rgblambda wrote: post #98

>As another worker put it, “I can tell you, most people really don’t give 2 flips about ‘company culture’ and think it’s BS.” Is there anyone who doesn't think "company culture" is bullshit?

"company culture"... decoy for "teambuilding on your free time"...

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#146

Post by bluefirebrand » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #143

bluefirebrand wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, this strikes me as an extremely romanticized view of life and employment. > Why should someone have a job just to get a paycheck Because we need some amount of money to survive in our society and we need lots of it to thrive in our society. > There are always options. Not really. There are always options if you have highly in demand skills with no external responsibilities that prevent you from relocating to b…

> They also don't possess terribly in-demand skills. Such workers shouldn't be calling BS on their leaders on return to offices, they should keep their heads down and do as they told. Regarding your points about needing money, the audience here is blessed to be in such high demand, that they can freely choose projects and leadership they like. We have just one life, why earn money doing something that you don't love?

> Such workers shouldn't be calling BS on their leaders on return to offices, they should keep their heads down and do as they told.

So people shouldn't have any say just because they have lesser in-demand skills?

Note that I didn't say these people were useless, they fulfill some role, just one that could easily be done by many others.

They might be extremely loyal, productive people who just want to continue working from home for whatever reason but because their skills are less in-demand, they should shut up and do as they're told?

Wow dude.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#147

Post by thunderbong » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 10:37 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #71

darth_avocado wrote: post #34

The whole pushback against remote work is absolutely nuts. When the companies were staring at shutdowns and loss of revenue, everyone gladly accepted the idea that people can work from home. And contrary to the popular belief, productivity increased (our own CEO admitted at one point in an all hands). But the minute there was a sign things are opening up, there's a complete opposite viewpoint being pushed from the sa…

The problem with fully remote work is that once you accept that a job can be done from anywhere, you have to compete on a global level. It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people willing to work for less than you! So don't get too excited about it ;-)

I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of effort involved in getting something done by someone locally to someone remote.

Time zone is the first hurdle. Although, in my opinion, this can still be overcome in a relative short period of time.

The second hurdle is familiarity with work culture and style. For a person who's worked already in your office, knows the system, knows all the procedures, knows the nooks an crannies of how all the softwares behave, who to call in case of issues, how to resolve them. All these aspects add to a significant amount of non-quantifiable knowledge which lots of organizations don't consider while outsourcing initially.

The third is process. Most organizations have their processes worked out over time. And this is rarely, if ever, documented. Even for people coming to office, there's a certain amount of time till they get familiar with this.

However, the biggest challenge is communication. This means everything - grammar, vocabulary, diction, accent, familiarity with jargon, parts of speech, colloquialisms, everything. To make a requirement understood itself is a challenge. Asking questions about that requirement when faced with a roadblock, is again a bottleneck.

As an Indian, who's worked in most of the English speaking countries, and now working from India, I can just humbly say this - never outsource to cut costs. This will bite you hard in the short run. Only if you have processes set, softwares used correctly, procedures documented, should you look into outsourcing. And that too it should be for reasons other than purely financial. As an example, having remote workers across time zones helps in maintaining support for your global customers better. Similarly, time zone differences can be used to your advantage. Finally, interacting with different cultures can only improve your organization's awareness, maturity, communication and global reach.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#148

Post by tdeck » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #71

darth_avocado wrote: post #34

The whole pushback against remote work is absolutely nuts. When the companies were staring at shutdowns and loss of revenue, everyone gladly accepted the idea that people can work from home. And contrary to the popular belief, productivity increased (our own CEO admitted at one point in an all hands). But the minute there was a sign things are opening up, there's a complete opposite viewpoint being pushed from the sa…

The problem with fully remote work is that once you accept that a job can be done from anywhere, you have to compete on a global level. It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people willing to work for less than you! So don't get too excited about it ;-)

Since my dad ran a software company, I've been hearing these worries about jobs moving to India etc... for most of my life. I worried about it 20 years ago, worried about it 15 years ago, and I don't worry about it anymore. As other commenters have said, not only has the pay gap for skilled engineers diminished significantly over that time, but there are other significant barriers to offshoring.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#149

Post by edmundsauto » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 11:02 PM UTC

narrator wrote: post #82

phkahler wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with fully remote work is that once you accept that a job can be done from anywhere, you have to compete on a global level. It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people willing to work for less than you! So don't get too excited about it ;-)

This is why it's good to be a lawyer. It's one of the last remaining guilds of knowledge workers with any power. It's literally illegal to have someone from wherever do certain tasks if they are not properly licensed.

That's one good reason to be a lawyer. However, if you speak with actual attorneys, they all have a hundred reasons to not become a lawyer. I have yet to find one that recommends it as a career path.

Re: Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to the office

#150

Post by narrator » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 11:25 PM UTC

edmundsauto wrote: post #149

narrator wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why it's good to be a lawyer. It's one of the last remaining guilds of knowledge workers with any power. It's literally illegal to have someone from wherever do certain tasks if they are not properly licensed.

That's one good reason to be a lawyer. However, if you speak with actual attorneys, they all have a hundred reasons to not become a lawyer. I have yet to find one that recommends it as a career path.

I know a patent lawyer and a divorce lawyer who really like their work. The patent lawyer is an ex-engineer and likes the technology. The divorce lawyer is a funny jerky guy and loves all the drama. It's not for everyone though.

If you want a laugh about why not to be a lawyer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs-UEqJ85KE