Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

bloomberg.com

141–150 of 156 posts

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#141
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen the repairability index yet it sounds very arbitrary and prone to be gamed. There is no need to micro manage how a device manufacturer designs their products as long as they offset the pollution they create by either paying the local governments to dig more landfills or recycle their own products or send it over to someone who can recycle. There are still open problems on how to measure the pollution b…

Paying for more landfills hardly offsets the pollution from a smartphone. Recycling might be better, but my understanding is that the worst damage is done in the mining/refining/manufacturing, not in the final home in a landfill.

Exactly, which is why you would want products which last long or are easy to repair. This reduces the need to manufacture lots of devices. Obviously this goes against the desires of companies which want to maximum sales.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#142
post #39
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this different than saying “if a company wants to make bad environmental decisions, that’s their prerogative”? Sometimes the government needs to get involved to prevent short-sighted behavior.

Because of the layer of indirection, and potential for missed out innovation. Yes, nonrepairable devices are worse for the environment, but we had early poorly-repairable ultrabooks that helped create a market space for later more-repairable ultrabooks. I think most people just want to ban the worst anti-repair actions, like trying to disable the device in the event of repair attempts or preventing the use of otherwi…

Lots of innovation is missed out on because of lack of regulation. So this is not a good point. The EV and solar panel revolution was largely created due to regulation.

It is a very neoliberal view to think free markets are the only source of innovation and government is just standing in the way.

Governments create lots of different incentives to foster innovation. Patents themselves are a government regulation meant to encourage innovation. Ironically companies have corrupt government to such a degree that patents today is often a hindrance to innovation. However well designed patent laws are likely better than no patent laws at all.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#143

It's funny that the right-to-repair is supposedly gaining momentum while at the same time consumers have had no problem buying new devices that are less and less open to be repaired, despite having the choice of phones with replaceable batteries for example

Maybe they needed to swing the thin, light and unserviceable way to experience for it themselves and have more perspective now.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#144
post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

In a 100% honest world I agree with everything you say. But, the world isn't 100% honest.

Let's say company A asks manufacturer F to make 100,000,000 units of a product. One element of this product costs $10. An enterprising person suggests that if 1% of the material submitted to the mfg line was counterfeit, but could be made to pass "inspection" they could make at least $10,000,000. They could resell the "genuine parts" on the grey market at a 50% markdown, but only pay 1% of the cost for the counterfeits. The product would ship. Company A would ultimately be left to deal with the 1% (but not trivial number) of unhappy customers and perhaps a class action lawsuit due to "not meeting specs".

In the post I am responding to, there is no requirement by anyone to validate that a part is within spec. Current contract manufacturing for a lot of products does not involve the originating company being able to independently validate the product before it is shipped to the end user. All validation needs to occur during manufacturing, on-site at the manufacturer. If you aren't validating what goes into manufacturing, how can you make any promises as to what comes out?

If company A decides to implement serialization of parts to combat manufacturing "problems". Those advocating "right to repair" are going to be upset because they are now 100% collateral damage. There are other aspects of this, where chip vendors attempt to lock-in customers with the promise of using "custom part numbers" (HP has a fabulous history for this, extending back to the 1980's) or for "custom" programming during fabrication. Many, many. many parts now contain programmable elements and silicon vendors have capitalized on this to gain a business advantage and lock in.

In a world of fraud, especially in the "repair" market, how can and do you establish trust when purchasing parts?

Let's also look at something entirely different. The "Blue Pill" is a development board, originally based on an ST microelectronics STM32 part. If you wanted to purchase a "Blue Pill" board, you will now >90% of the time (based on price) receive a counterfeit product - the microcontroller will not be an STM32 part and it will not exactly meet the specifications (especially in low power situations). Who is to blame? Who pays for this fraud? Should this be "fixed"? How? By who?

Pivoting again. This news "report" is a product, delivered to customers. Are journalists prepared to document the thought processes that went into their product. Will they commit to documenting any changes to the product, including why the changes were made and for what reasons? This is what many of these articles are implicitly asking of hardware manufacturers!

I am generally in favor of being able to repair, but it isn't as simple as toilet roll unroll forward or backwards? (a deliberately chosen metaphor as the majority of the worlds population does not use).

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#145
post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

The companies are part of the same planet. They get away with green washing. They have to be responsible for the damage they do but exploiting low cost labour in developing countries and pushing a new IPhone/android and non repairable toasters very year which end up in landfill.

Without out projects to revive old phones, which have to struggle to reverse engineer qualcomm modems, we would have so much more stuff in landfill. I use 10 yr old phones and they are just as fast as back then and get the job done.

The only reason to upgrade is to push their "addictive" app store as that is the major way of making money

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#146

One note: the article misses the connection between this and the current lawsuit between Epic and Apple. These companies are opposing right-to-repair in part because it undermines the ability to maintain control over what software people run on their devices, and where they install software from.

Yup. The business model is pushing new phones just so that can keep making money off that store and the addiction to the addictive apps.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#147
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Consumers just want a choice to bring their broken vechicle/device to a guy who charges a reasonable amount to repair. This. I will be happy even if Apple ( and specifically Apple ) will do this themselves instead of charging parts that earn their exact same margin as if you were buying a new computer. Everything is wrong with the logic board, which cost you $400+. Apple speakers are ( comparatively speaking ) easil…

Easy fix is not to buy Apple anymore.

other manufacturers are not any better, barring rare exceptions

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy fix is not to buy Apple anymore.

other manufacturers are not any better, barring rare exceptions

System76 offers complete repair guides and lets you buy parts. Lenovo lets you open most of their laptops for self-maintenance as well.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy fix is not to buy Apple anymore.

other manufacturers are not any better, barring rare exceptions

I bought a laptop (Clevo clone) from Schenker year before last. They have videos on YouTube on how to open it up for repair... So apparently some manufacturers are a bit better.
Post reply on HN