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Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

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Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#141

Post by shard »

renewiltord wrote: post #93
beaner wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the point taken from the study is really designed to stoke tension when it is not really reflective of anything meaningful when it comes to job applicant filtering. It reminds me of a learning from one of Thomas Sowell's books. There were communities that thought that background checks for employees in certain industries were racially discriminating by their very nature. They moved to ban them. Race disparities…

Ironically, HN frequently touts the benefits of "just talk to someone about their work" over the impartial whiteboard interview. I far prefer the Software Engineering industry's focus on design and coding interviews. Impartial. Unrealistic. But fair.

Unfortunately once you move past the lower working level software/engineering jobs, either vertically to team lead positions or horizontally to product management or marketing or sales, whiteboard interviews are not that helpful, as soft skills becomes as important if not more important than technical skills for success at work.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#142

Post by jacobolus »

WalterBright wrote: post #125
mavelikara wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's not testing for anything real. You are too quick to dismiss the study, I think. What the study shows, I think, is that other things being equal the person who sounds to be from higher class is likely to get the job. The study simulates the other things being equal scenario by eliminating all other avenues for the hiring manager to judge. Here is the quote from the TFA, lightly edited for emphasis: The study…

> education I.e. something that does matter. I notice with wry amusement that my own speech patterns vary depending on who I'm talking to. For an obvious example, using simpler words and a higher pitch when talking to very young children. But I use different vocabularies when talking to different groups of adults, too. This is all quite unconscious. I bet we all do this.

More dramatically, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#143

Post by TameAntelope »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #135
TameAntelope wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got a lot of problems with this work, but I think I can best summarize my issues with the question: Who are the "Democratic elites"? A list of "Democratic politicians" and quotes from them is given, but I'm curious if that's the full summation of who the "elites" are, or if there are other, thus far unnamed "elites". I can't think of a better example, but this reminds me of some of the papers on skull size from…

> The whole, "We should trick white people into being kinder to minorities" argument is, frankly, insulting to white people, among many other not-very-noble things. White people should be able to hear arguments about racial inequality without losing their collective minds. I think this is missing the problem with that framing. You're kind of assuming that the reason people oppose a bill purported to solve a problem f…

I hear you, and I can soften my tone somewhat, but I still think this is trying to advocate for some kind of "secret liberal agenda" (and I mean those words specifically, not as a dig), and I don't think that's a good idea. If you're trying to help black people, say that's what you're doing, don't "hide" your intention, if that's what your intention is.

I think it's the responsibility of the white fisherman in your story to read the parts of the text and listen to the parts of the arguments that address him and his problems (and there are plenty), and to be glad that it also helps minorities. His failure to figure that out is his fault, not the people trying to help's fault (I'm not great at softening my tone, you may notice; I'm genuinely sorry about that).

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#144

Post by metiscus »

golemiprague wrote: post #137
metiscus wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't my argument, but as I try to understand all sides I'll do my best to explain the position anyway. The idea goes something like this. You have white privilege because you are visibly white. By being visibly white you gain an automatic differentiation from those who are non-white. The belief is that the system, being largely run by white people will extend courtesy and nicer treatment to those who look like it…

I don't think he argued that by being white he might have some advantages, although it can be argued especially these days. His point was that there are million of other parameters that can affect ones life experience, so why just one advantage in the skin colour department makes him priviliged when he had so many other disadvantages in other departments.

What I was explaining is my understanding of the point of view of the people who believe he does have privilege for his race. It is not my belief but I try to understand all sides of arguments and did my best to represent it.

To continue, briefly. The difference between the various other types of benefits vs "whiteness" is twofold but interconnected. It is obvious who is and is not in the group and the group has institutional power. Most other sets of parameters do not work together in this way.

Again this isn't my position so if it is yours and I've misrepresented it, chime in please.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#145

Post by DenisM »

Nasrudith wrote: post #138
DenisM wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must say it also looks rather beneficial to some - while the lower classes are duking it out over a divisive issue the upper classes are safe from social reform. Divide and rule.

Why would all social classes be the same in motivations and goals? You can never trust the "loyalty" of groups they never signed up for. A mining company owner, a wall street trader, a tech start up millionaire, a head partner of a law firm and old-money heir(ess) would all have different interests and goals. The same goes for lower classes as well.

For starters, the rich have uniform interest in taxation policy - brackets, inheritance, wealth tax, loopholes, trusts, offshores.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#146

Post by DenisM »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #126
DenisM wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must say it also looks rather beneficial to some - while the lower classes are duking it out over a divisive issue the upper classes are safe from social reform. Divide and rule.

President Lyndon Johnson said >If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you. It does not just apply to dynamics between white and non white people, it applies to all people, even within tribes of the same skin color, and probably even other tribal species.

He didn’t make it up either - the French government did exactly that about 200 years ago in Haiti. They introduced apartheid for the purpose of sowing discord between people and undermining the independence movement.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#147

Post by vmception »

sahila wrote: post #128
vmception wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

privilege is a misnomer when its really freedom from some distractions nobody is going to call the police on you for simply walking in a neighborhood nextdoor and facebook groups arent going to have messages from vigilant bored housewives just because you walked down the street sundown towns and the ideas that reinforce them don't exist for you but saying “privilege” suggests other things are handed to you that would…

What I find interesting in all your examples is it feels the cause for issues are power imbalances and racism. The people calling the cops are likely the white neighbors on their black neighbors and not the other way around. In your nextdoor example, it's not just "bored housewives", it's "white bored housewives". I don't suppose you feel that black bored housewives are also posting those messages.

Correct. Did you need that validated or I am missing the point of your post….? Not sure how to respond, you know that we are agreeing, like 100%?

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#148

Post by mythrwy »

metiscus wrote: post #53
flavius29663 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as a white that grew up very very poor, I can't possibly understand why so many black people try to convince me that I'm guilty of white privilege, when most of them had many more resources growing up.

It isn't my argument, but as I try to understand all sides I'll do my best to explain the position anyway. The idea goes something like this. You have white privilege because you are visibly white. By being visibly white you gain an automatic differentiation from those who are non-white. The belief is that the system, being largely run by white people will extend courtesy and nicer treatment to those who look like it…

`By being visibly white you gain an automatic differentiation from those who are non-white.`

Thought experiment. Two crazy looking homeless people approach you yelling. They are dirty in ripped clothes and look to be high on strong drugs. One is black, one is white. Do you feel better about, or differentiate the white person because he is "your people"?

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#149

Post by WalterBright »

WalterBright wrote: post #121

There's nothing at all new here, it's well known. See "My Fair Lady". What else matters: 1. height 2. vocabulary 3. posture 4. clothes (see "Dress For Success") 5. age 6. attractiveness 7. health "Just yew wight, 'enry 'iggins, just yew wight!"

P.S. Back around 1975, John Molloy wrote "Dress For Success" in which he noted that men wearing a tan trenchcoat got better jobs and pay than men wearing a black trenchcoat. Black trenchcoats quickly disappeared :-)

I still have my London Fog tan trenchcoat circa 1980.

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