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UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#141

Post by patmcc »

zepto wrote: post #110
simion314 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should Apple decide what part I put in the phone? If the phone is out of warranty then I should be able to use batteries, screens, chargers or software that is not blessed by Apple's grace. When I was a kid we were "repairing" our cheap watches by using parts from broken ones, at most what Apple could do is print a giant warning on the boot screen that the phone is no longer blessed by Apple so people that want t…

> Why should Apple decide what part I put in the phone? If the phone is out of warranty then I should be able to use batteries, screens, chargers or software that is not blessed by Apple's grace. For a lot of people, this is a feature, not a bug. It prevents repair shops using substandard components, or even replacing good components with cheaper ones and then re-selling them. Edit: another much more serious issue, i…

Sure - then Apple should be forced to provide those parts at reasonable prices. You want me to only use an "official" battery? Then you can sell me an Apple one for the same price as a knock-off.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#142

Post by zepto »

patmcc wrote: post #141
zepto wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should Apple decide what part I put in the phone? If the phone is out of warranty then I should be able to use batteries, screens, chargers or software that is not blessed by Apple's grace. For a lot of people, this is a feature, not a bug. It prevents repair shops using substandard components, or even replacing good components with cheaper ones and then re-selling them. Edit: another much more serious issue, i…

Sure - then Apple should be forced to provide those parts at reasonable prices. You want me to only use an "official" battery? Then you can sell me an Apple one for the same price as a knock-off.

> Sure - then Apple should be forced to provide those parts at reasonable prices.

Is there any product you wouldn’t want to apply price controls to, or force people to make? How are you singling out one company?

> You want me to only use an "official" battery? Then you can sell me an Apple one for the same price as a knock-off.

This makes no sense.

Knocks offs are cheaper because they didn’t invest in R&D, don’t have to be in compliance with global regulations, can make use of lower standard parts, and don’t have Apple’s warranty. Their suppliers also have zero interest in protecting you from supply chain attacks.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#143

Post by zepto »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #130
bluGill wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a source of parts is devices that are stolen and stripped for the parts. The parts are then laundered so you think your source is legal. By putting a serial number on each part it means you go after the supplier who you otherwise thought was honest and so this whole scheme shuts down.

Well maybe i should not be allowed to buy used shoes, what if they are stolen? Why should my right of ownership be violated to help apple deal with 'stolen' parts?

> Why should my right of ownership be violated to help apple deal with 'stolen' parts?

It isn’t.

Apple’s products are designed to help consumers avoid the problems associated with stolen parts, including the very real threat of supply chain attacks.

You always have the right not to choose that design.

You seem to want to prevent other people from choosing it, which seems odd to me.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#144

Post by simion314 »

zepto wrote: post #136
simion314 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is also the risk with computers and cars, there might be "a lot" of people that would like DRM cars and computers but there are a lot more lots of people that would like to repair the car then buy a new one each year, or even the rich guys that buy a new car yearly they would like to be able to sell the old car and you can't sell an old car if it does not run because it needs a new memory stick in the main compu…

> there might be "a lot" of people that would like DRM cars and computers but there are a lot more lots of people that would like to repair the car then buy a new one each year, This isn’t a valid comparison - nobody is forced to buy a new car or phone every year. I strongly doubt you are right about the numbers in general. Very few people want to risk fraudulent parts. But, I do agree that at some point the user sho…

Sorry I do not understand your point, nobody is forced to buy a phone or car each year, the difference is that I can change the lights on my car with an "unofficial" part if I want without Ford complaining that I am a pirate and trying to void my engine warranty. I have all the possible options with my car:

- go to a Ford shop and have them do it for me

- go to a reputable website and browse all compatible parts and decide if I want something more e pensive or something more cheap

- when I have the part I can install it myself, a friend or a professional that is not a "Ford" genius.

Ford would love to force me to buy only from them parts, oils, fuel and only repair or do maintenance on their shops but fortunately they can't force us. (but you have the choice to use only Ford blessed products and people).

For stolen cars there are serial numbers printed on the car engine and body parts to make it more difficult for thieves but sure it still happens and I am for doing more to prevent crime and finding the criminals but doing exactly what Ford would like and is bad for society and environment is clearly a bad thing IMO.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#145

Post by detritus »

bluGill wrote: post #100
detritus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate some of the rationale for the cost, however the fridge itself is less than five years old. The solution here would be standardised fridge door shelf types, or better yet - sturdier designs that don't gradually crack when the door is shut 'a little jovially', billiarding glass jars around... .

Standardization is nice in theory, but I'm not sure if it is practical - designers like to make silly little changes for branding reasons all the time. Which is why your 5 year old shelf is probably out of production anyway. As for sturdier designs: that is a design feature you need to be willing to pay for. Make sure you check on that in the next fridge and tell others. (Price is not a guide to quality - often but n…

For sure, but if there were an ISO standard for fridge doors, I could at least get options that perhaps whilst not exactly the same as what I have aesthetically, would fit functionally.

As an ex/sometime-designer myself, I can appreciate why they'd want to make silly little changes ;)

And yes, as I admitted in my first post here - it IS a crappy fridge. I have only myself to blame.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#146

Post by zepto »

simion314 wrote: post #125
bluGill wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a source of parts is devices that are stolen and stripped for the parts. The parts are then laundered so you think your source is legal. By putting a serial number on each part it means you go after the supplier who you otherwise thought was honest and so this whole scheme shuts down.

I understand the issue with the stolen parts, cars also can have similar issues and we still can buy after market parts. I wonder if we can confirm this theory that is also financial extremely favorable to Apple or is just FUD and PR.

> I wonder if we can confirm this theory that is also financial extremely favorable to Apple

As a metric, this is a useless gauge of what Apple does.

Their whole aim is to do things that benefit customers, and profit from it.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#147

Post by ClumsyPilot »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #17
aboringusername wrote: post #9

When everything is a commodity it's hard to see how this will be useful. When an appliance (fridge, cooker, washing machine) breaks, it's cheaper to replace. I cannot see how repairing a TV will ever be cheaper than just replacing it since they are so cheap brand new. This also applies to smartphones, none of the popular models have replaceable batteries so in the trash they go and they become worthless, even if the…

That's because this sort of legislation (in the UK and in the EU) is driven by superficial thinking and politics, not data-driven analysis and pragmatic considerations. People go " why don't they just make things simpler to repair? " like it was an obvious solution to problems (real or perceived) whereas the reality is obviously much more complex. Appliances are already quite durable and repairable. Making things 'mo…

"Appliances are already quite durable and repairable."

Do you live in fanatsy land? they don't come with schematics, they don't come witj repair manuals, sale or replacement parts is pyrposefully restricted, firmware is locked, they are stuck together with glue and their mean time between failure is deacreasing. What else has to happen for you to accept the real world?

"I would rather they focus on ease of recycling."

Repair will always be easier than recycling because laws of physics. Plastic and electronics are basically unrecycleable, and extremely expensive to dispose of priperly?

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#148

Post by zepto »

simion314 wrote: post #144
zepto wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there might be "a lot" of people that would like DRM cars and computers but there are a lot more lots of people that would like to repair the car then buy a new one each year, This isn’t a valid comparison - nobody is forced to buy a new car or phone every year. I strongly doubt you are right about the numbers in general. Very few people want to risk fraudulent parts. But, I do agree that at some point the user sho…

Sorry I do not understand your point, nobody is forced to buy a phone or car each year, the difference is that I can change the lights on my car with an "unofficial" part if I want without Ford complaining that I am a pirate and trying to void my engine warranty. I have all the possible options with my car: - go to a Ford shop and have them do it for me - go to a reputable website and browse all compatible parts and…

We aren’t talking about cars. As I said earlier, they aren’t a valid comparison.

Computers and cars are quite different in their components, and life cycle.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#149

Post by ClumsyPilot »

zepto wrote: post #143
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well maybe i should not be allowed to buy used shoes, what if they are stolen? Why should my right of ownership be violated to help apple deal with 'stolen' parts?

> Why should my right of ownership be violated to help apple deal with 'stolen' parts? It isn’t. Apple’s products are designed to help consumers avoid the problems associated with stolen parts, including the very real threat of supply chain attacks. You always have the right not to choose that design. You seem to want to prevent other people from choosing it, which seems odd to me.

"very real threat of supply chain attacks"

Every year millions of devices are thown away because of this.

How many phones suffered from supply chain attack last year? Probably zero.

Apple products are designed to subvert the concept of ownership. They retain control even after i paid for the item.

We live in a world where all of my equipment could be switched off if one of their servers goes down, you are legally forvidden from repairing it and people like you giht to defend these practices - you couldn't make it up! You are fighting to became a peasant without any rights.

Other manufacturers are already following suit, and there wont be any choice left.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#150

Post by lotsofpulp »

statstutor wrote: post #132
lotsofpulp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is that manufacturers must now consider this cost in their calculations, rather than pass all the consequences on to the consumer without caring. If this was the goal, then simply taxing fossil fuels and other polluting sources would be the ideal and simple solution. How high would the taxes need to be? However high it takes to get pollution levels down to where they need to be. The actual cost of a new i…

I'm a bit lost. I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion at all. Manufacturers already pay $ proportional to the amount of fossil fuels spent, and this doesn't cause them to consider future consequences on the consumer. They still think vendor lock-in and planned obsolescence are to their advantage.

Only because the true cost of fossil fuels and other pollution isn't reflected in the sale price to the end users, so it's often cheaper to buy new rather than repaired products.

If the true cost of pollution were pushed into the sale price for end users, end users would have to reduce their purchases of non repairable items, and consumers would then value repairability as a feature, incentivizing manufacturers to cater to that.

It's much easier to force the change this way than through figuring out the correct wording in legislation, which is bound to have loopholes and be subject to costly (time wise) legal conflicts.

The root of the issue is that things are so cheap, repairing them makes no sense, regardless of repair-ability. Manufacturers didn't one day decide to drop repair-ability. One did it, and found that they were not punished by consumers. In fact, they were probably rewarded by offering new "features". Then another manufacturer did it, then another, and so on. And obviously, it works. I just went to someone's house who was showing off their fancy new fridge with a see through door.

Of course, the very very root of the issue is humanity's excess consumption which is causing harm to the environment we live in, but as I wrote earlier, that faces insurmountable political headwinds.

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