Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 152 posts

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#141

Post by tim333 »

koboll wrote: post #6
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #3

Live life for its own sake. The gift of life is life itself. What's the alternative? Twice in my life I've grasped the concept of death, and it made my heart race with an exhilarating feeling of suffocating claustrophobic for two reasons: 1. It's coming for me one day 2. Not just the lack of agency in the universe, but the lack of even the realisation of the lack of agency. All of this (wide sweeping hand gesture ack…

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

There's always cryo.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#142

Post by mpfundstein »

rv-de wrote: post #129
keiferski wrote: post #94

All beings so far have created something beyond themselves. Do you want to be the ebb of that great tide, and revert back to the beast rather than overcome mankind? What is the ape to a man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just so shall a man be to the Overman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. You have evolved from worm to man, but much within you is still worm. Once you were apes, yet even now man is more…

nietzsche was an idiot ...

spotted the intellectual

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#143

Post by Viliam1234 »

tasty_freeze wrote: post #38
koboll wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

I love ice cream. But if I had to eat a billion gallons of it, it would lose its appeal. Life is like that too: if we had it in infinite supply, it wouldn't have much value. If I could extend my life by 50 years of good health I might take that offer. If I had to extend it by 500 years, I'm pretty sure I'd decline. If I had to extend it 5000 years I'd certainly say no. 5M years of existence would be torture. When peo…

> If I had to extend it by 500 years, I'm pretty sure I'd decline.

500 years sounds like just enough time to become an expert in dozen interesting things.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#144

Post by llamaz »

thinkingemote wrote: post #85
m0zg wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the Long Peace and technological progress put us at the dawn of the Golden Age, and we're living it right now, setbacks like COVID notwithstanding. Steven Pinker puts forward a powerful argument to that effect in "Enlightenment Now", and it's hard to disagree when you look at the data. Literally none of that would be even possible under this philosophical framework.

Gray's view is not that there is no progress but that the idea of natural progression, unstoppable, inevitable progress is wrong and dangerous. In the article it gives the example (a minor setback, I'm sure) of the return of torture in western democracies. Data: In terms of lives ruined via proxy wars you can make the data show that more people are in misery now compared to less actual deaths. But we can discard this…

You misunderstand Gray and somehow believe him to hold the exact specific position that he's arguing against, namely, the humanism of Dawkins/Pinker/Chomsky. You can't get this from the article above, but read other books he's written, or listen to any of his talks on youtube. He's not a humanist and he's anti-enlightenment. His entire claim to fame is that he rejects the humanist idea of progress despite "minor setbacks".

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#145

Post by thinkingemote »

llamaz wrote: post #144
thinkingemote wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gray's view is not that there is no progress but that the idea of natural progression, unstoppable, inevitable progress is wrong and dangerous. In the article it gives the example (a minor setback, I'm sure) of the return of torture in western democracies. Data: In terms of lives ruined via proxy wars you can make the data show that more people are in misery now compared to less actual deaths. But we can discard this…

You misunderstand Gray and somehow believe him to hold the exact specific position that he's arguing against, namely, the humanism of Dawkins/Pinker/Chomsky. You can't get this from the article above, but read other books he's written, or listen to any of his talks on youtube. He's not a humanist and he's anti-enlightenment. His entire claim to fame is that he rejects the humanist idea of progress despite "minor setb…

sounds like the same thing I wrote!

Rejection of the idea of progress.

Gray does not reject that things have happened in the past. He rejects the notion that the reason these things happened is natural and part of "Progress".

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#146

Post by bsenftner »

antepodius wrote: post #121
bsenftner wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death is relief from observing the continual descent into madness for the human race. Ever wonder why smart but unacclaimed elders are so bitter? We've spent our lives watching the stupid evil win over the smart evil, and the good never having a chance. I'll be glad when I'm dead, if I could be glad. To not watch the human race destroy itself is all the heaven I expect.

Why are you sticking around, then?

I help others.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#147

Post by bsenftner »

keiferski wrote: post #106
bsenftner wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you discard these imagined futures, you end up with a "Eh, I have no agency anyway, why bother with difficult things?" That's one take on the situation, the unreasonable other which all society depends (the inventor), sees a stupid, nihilistic future and gets to work to improve it, simply because there is nothing more interesting to spend one's time than elevating others in need, regardless of it having any mean…

But your definition of improve and elevating others is inherently based on your worldview and projection of imagined futures. You can’t escape the metaphysical horizon.

I'm ending immediate pain and hunger, how is that operating in an imagined future?

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#148

Post by mcjkrw »

koboll wrote: post #6
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #3

Live life for its own sake. The gift of life is life itself. What's the alternative? Twice in my life I've grasped the concept of death, and it made my heart race with an exhilarating feeling of suffocating claustrophobic for two reasons: 1. It's coming for me one day 2. Not just the lack of agency in the universe, but the lack of even the realisation of the lack of agency. All of this (wide sweeping hand gesture ack…

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

I like this quote by a Greek philosopher Epicurus “Why should I fear death? If I am, then death is not. If Death is, then I am not."

Besides, we all already have died in one way or another. I'm 24 year old, is my 15 year old self still alive, is my 5 year old self still alive? Nope. Even if I make it to my 40s, I will become a different person by then - the person that is me will die in some form.

Now imagine if you lived 500 - 1000 years. There are few this could go:

1.You will be fairly active your entire life, thus experience many of these "personality deaths" - so what difference does it make if you finally die for real

2.You will grow old mentally and stagnate. Chances are you will want to die anyway because you can't take it anymore.

3.You will achieve some degree of "enlightment" - and the forementioned quote will probably make even more sense than we can intellectually imagine

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#149

Post by llamaz »

thinkingemote wrote: post #145
llamaz wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand Gray and somehow believe him to hold the exact specific position that he's arguing against, namely, the humanism of Dawkins/Pinker/Chomsky. You can't get this from the article above, but read other books he's written, or listen to any of his talks on youtube. He's not a humanist and he's anti-enlightenment. His entire claim to fame is that he rejects the humanist idea of progress despite "minor setb…

sounds like the same thing I wrote! Rejection of the idea of progress. Gray does not reject that things have happened in the past. He rejects the notion that the reason these things happened is natural and part of "Progress".

> Gray's view is not that there is no progress but that the idea of natural progression, unstoppable, inevitable progress is wrong and dangerous.

What I mean to say is that his view is that there really is no progress. Scientifically, sure, but morally we've been the same for thousands of years. He has quite a nihilistic view that leads to political indifference. Here's a talk of his that explains his position in more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmRBHCclzZk

In short, however:

e.g. "Gray does not deny the reality of scientific, technological, and material improvements. He only insists that the things we mean when we call such improvements “progress”—that gains, once made, are not lost but built upon, that setbacks are rare and temporary—has no analogy in morality or human affairs: “Knowledge increases at an accelerating rate, but human beings are no more reasonable than they have ever been.” - https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/02/21/john-gray-atheis...

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#150

Post by llamaz »

thinkingemote wrote: post #145
llamaz wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand Gray and somehow believe him to hold the exact specific position that he's arguing against, namely, the humanism of Dawkins/Pinker/Chomsky. You can't get this from the article above, but read other books he's written, or listen to any of his talks on youtube. He's not a humanist and he's anti-enlightenment. His entire claim to fame is that he rejects the humanist idea of progress despite "minor setb…

sounds like the same thing I wrote! Rejection of the idea of progress. Gray does not reject that things have happened in the past. He rejects the notion that the reason these things happened is natural and part of "Progress".

I guess another way to put it is that, not only is there not necessarily any progress. But that as a result of a fixed human nature, the mistakes of the past will almost certainly be repeated. As John Gray states “politics is a succession of temporary and partial remedies for permanent and recurring human evil.”

In other words, the political traditions we have currently should not be torn down in the name of progress. Further, we shouldn't try to overthrow dictators like Saddam or the authoritarian rule in China (the opinion on Saddam is that of John Gray). This is because, as is apparent in Iraq, anarchy may rule. And when it does, it's very difficult to reach some level of civilisation and peace.

TL DR: It is easy to tear down a spider web, and very hard to rebuild it.

Post reply on HN