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John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

theguardian.com

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Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#101

Post by yowlingcat »

koboll wrote: post #6
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #3

Live life for its own sake. The gift of life is life itself. What's the alternative? Twice in my life I've grasped the concept of death, and it made my heart race with an exhilarating feeling of suffocating claustrophobic for two reasons: 1. It's coming for me one day 2. Not just the lack of agency in the universe, but the lack of even the realisation of the lack of agency. All of this (wide sweeping hand gesture ack…

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

Counterpoint: Hayflick limit [1]. Of course, the humble lobster, jellyfish and hydra [2] (along with other animals) don't seem to undergo senescence but IMO the jury is still out on whether hominids are biologically amenable to such feats of genetic engineering.

The other question besides whether such a thing is possible is whether it is desirable. Depending on one's viewpoint, one could look at immortal humans as a cosmic cancer. At least the cycle of death and birth limits the harm a bad actor can do. What would you do if your least favorite fascist were also immortal and invulnerable? And I do mean that somewhat rhetorically. It's a messy ethical subject to think about, personally. I kinda prefer life and death.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayflick_limit

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality#Organis...

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#102

Post by fsflover »

cyberdrunk wrote: post #63
koboll wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

> We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it. Ekhm, citation needed?

Perhaps, something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#103

Post by amanaplanacanal »

yowlingcat wrote: post #101
koboll wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

Counterpoint: Hayflick limit [1]. Of course, the humble lobster, jellyfish and hydra [2] (along with other animals) don't seem to undergo senescence but IMO the jury is still out on whether hominids are biologically amenable to such feats of genetic engineering. The other question besides whether such a thing is possible is whether it is desirable. Depending on one's viewpoint, one could look at immortal humans as a…

Yikes! What if you die, but the fascist lives forever? That seems like the worst of both worlds.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#104

Post by mrfredward »

felipemnoa wrote: post #32
koboll wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

>>Death is monstrous. I'll be a contrarian and post this: >>No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because death is very likely the single best invention of life. It is life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, bu…

>>It clears out the old to make way for the new.

Just imagine working for a boss who had been climbing the company ladder 200 years. Or trying to buy a house in a market where people had been accumulating capital for centuries. And lest we think it's just the the economic system, look at the average age of politicians. Or science, the researchers who hold the most prestige are likely past the point of embracing new ideas. Any advantage which can be accumulated over time would be held almost exclusively by the oldest, and the world would stagnate.

Death is the natural law which requires every generation to pass the torch. Without it, there'd be no life for the young.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#105

Post by bsenftner »

keiferski wrote: post #94

All beings so far have created something beyond themselves. Do you want to be the ebb of that great tide, and revert back to the beast rather than overcome mankind? What is the ape to a man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just so shall a man be to the Overman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. You have evolved from worm to man, but much within you is still worm. Once you were apes, yet even now man is more…

> If you discard these imagined futures, you end up with a "Eh, I have no agency anyway, why bother with difficult things?"

That's one take on the situation, the unreasonable other which all society depends (the inventor), sees a stupid, nihilistic future and gets to work to improve it, simply because there is nothing more interesting to spend one's time than elevating others in need, regardless of it having any meaning.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#106

Post by keiferski »

bsenftner wrote: post #105
keiferski wrote: post #94

All beings so far have created something beyond themselves. Do you want to be the ebb of that great tide, and revert back to the beast rather than overcome mankind? What is the ape to a man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just so shall a man be to the Overman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. You have evolved from worm to man, but much within you is still worm. Once you were apes, yet even now man is more…

> If you discard these imagined futures, you end up with a "Eh, I have no agency anyway, why bother with difficult things?" That's one take on the situation, the unreasonable other which all society depends (the inventor), sees a stupid, nihilistic future and gets to work to improve it, simply because there is nothing more interesting to spend one's time than elevating others in need, regardless of it having any mean…

But your definition of improve and elevating others is inherently based on your worldview and projection of imagined futures. You can’t escape the metaphysical horizon.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#108

Post by bsenftner »

koboll wrote: post #6
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #3

Live life for its own sake. The gift of life is life itself. What's the alternative? Twice in my life I've grasped the concept of death, and it made my heart race with an exhilarating feeling of suffocating claustrophobic for two reasons: 1. It's coming for me one day 2. Not just the lack of agency in the universe, but the lack of even the realisation of the lack of agency. All of this (wide sweeping hand gesture ack…

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

Death is relief from observing the continual descent into madness for the human race. Ever wonder why smart but unacclaimed elders are so bitter? We've spent our lives watching the stupid evil win over the smart evil, and the good never having a chance. I'll be glad when I'm dead, if I could be glad. To not watch the human race destroy itself is all the heaven I expect.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#109

Post by bsenftner »

kossTKR wrote: post #81
koboll wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

I have never been overly afraid of death but after deep diving into meditation, math and philosophy, i have come to the conclusion that a form of "idealism" or consciousness-first is much more likely than a materialist universe. This makes a lot of "scientism"(not scientists) people very angry , but personally my best guess is that "spacetime" will be seen as an evolutionary adaptation, or much more of a morphable cu…

Great insight. Thanks for posting your thoughts.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#110

Post by cyberdrunk »

fsflover wrote: post #102
cyberdrunk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it. Ekhm, citation needed?

Perhaps, something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

It's just someone's prediction. Could be true, could be false. Maybe the singularity will happen in 10 years, maybe in 10000 years, or maybe it's actually impossible for us humans to accomplish.
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