How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled • Hacker News Board

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#141

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 6:42 AM UTC

pedalpete wrote: post #123

stickfigure wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that so bad? I mean, it was oil in the ground and now it is plastic in the ground. It seems like a kind of carbon sequestration, where 10,000 years is a feature, no? Honestly curious.

As oil it was trapped under shale or in sands where it had no effect on the water table and didn't get into the water or food supply. As plastics it is "broken down" into microplastics, and gets into things and areas it was never intended to be. It is then consumed and builds up in the systems of animals, and even eventually by us. Even your local landfill, is part of a management system, but will it really last 3,00…

Can microplastics escape landfills, or is that an issue for trash that didn't get into a landfill?

> We can't just keep adding and adding to it, we can't cover the planet in landfills of plastic, we aren't putting the "oils" back to where they came from.

Why does it matter if it's the same spot?

More importantly there's only so much oil and putting it all in landfills would not cover the planet.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#142

Post by tedk-42 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 6:42 AM UTC

ppf wrote: post #140

rapnie wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the remaining waste be efficiently used to generate energy in a waste incinerator? They are still high-energy oil products after all, and no longer mixed in with all kinds of wet biomass.

Exactly what I've been saying for years. Public perception of incinerators is pretty poor though.

They produce a lot of toxic gases as the plastics often contain a variety of elements which when burned formed nasty compounds

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#143

Post by daxfohl » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 6:48 AM UTC

Though I'm curious if the "reusable" trend is more of the same. Are single-use bags and straws really that bad for the environment, and do reusables get reused enough times to make a difference, or is a reusable straw just another thing to make money on? (Not that I imagine reusable straws is a lucrative enough industry to be worthy of dedicated political lobbying teams, but who knows).

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#144

Post by a1369209993 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 6:51 AM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #22

aidenn0 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastic films can be recycled in theory, they just can't be put into sorting machines, as they tend to gum up the works. If you had a big box of just PLA films, you could recycle it just like any other hunk of PLA, but getting to the big box of PLA films is not feasible.

Another issue with film is that its too lightweight to be worth the hassle. The economics of recycling is that objects are paid per pound. 1lb of steel is pretty easy to collect. In contrast: 1lb of plastic film, even if its theoretically recyclable, is infeasible to sort and recycle with an economic profit. Aluminum foil is another one: my local recycling does NOT accept Aluminum foil. Aluminum is one of the "best r…

You can work around that somewhat by crumpling aluminum foil up and shoving it inside aluminum cans, although that might not be worth the hassle either.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#145

Post by gerbler » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 6:51 AM UTC

bit_logic wrote: post #62

bit_logic wrote: post #44

The whole recycling scam makes me upset. For decades the message was to recycle for the environment. But it was all just shipped to China and then dumped into the oceans. It actually would've been better if it went to landfills, at least then it's safely contained. Another lie was that we're running out of landfill space, there's so much land out there. Like most environmental issues, the focus should've been on prod…

Thinking about this more, wasn't there a time, maybe late 90s early 2000s when the message was that plastic is more environmental than paper? Something like at the supermarket checkout you should pick plastic over paper bags to save rain forest trees? Is my memory wrong or was this a widespread message at the time?

There were some life-cycle analyses done which created quite a stir arguing that plastic was better when the full life-cycle was considered. I can't find the original paper but here's a summary [1] of studies with sources (from a bag website)

1: http://www.allaboutbags.ca/papervplasticstudies.html.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#146

Post by sudasana » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 7:03 AM UTC

gerbler wrote: post #145

bit_logic wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking about this more, wasn't there a time, maybe late 90s early 2000s when the message was that plastic is more environmental than paper? Something like at the supermarket checkout you should pick plastic over paper bags to save rain forest trees? Is my memory wrong or was this a widespread message at the time?

There were some life-cycle analyses done which created quite a stir arguing that plastic was better when the full life-cycle was considered. I can't find the original paper but here's a summary [1] of studies with sources (from a bag website) 1: http://www.allaboutbags.ca/papervplasticstudies.html .

Not sure if a site compiled by the Canadian Plastics Industry Association is a great source here. Even though it cites sources, there's probbaly some strong selection bias going on here.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#147

Post by refurb » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 7:03 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #141

pedalpete wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As oil it was trapped under shale or in sands where it had no effect on the water table and didn't get into the water or food supply. As plastics it is "broken down" into microplastics, and gets into things and areas it was never intended to be. It is then consumed and builds up in the systems of animals, and even eventually by us. Even your local landfill, is part of a management system, but will it really last 3,00…

Can microplastics escape landfills, or is that an issue for trash that didn't get into a landfill? > We can't just keep adding and adding to it, we can't cover the planet in landfills of plastic, we aren't putting the "oils" back to where they came from. Why does it matter if it's the same spot? More importantly there's only so much oil and putting it all in landfills would not cover the planet.

Microplastics mostly come from fabric like nylon. Small fibers that can be easily broken off.

Your crushed 4L milk jug in a landfill isn't much of a source of microplastics, nor is it much of a threat to the water table (I mean, we use that same plastic for food).

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#148

Post by lrem » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 7:04 AM UTC

ppf wrote: post #140

rapnie wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the remaining waste be efficiently used to generate energy in a waste incinerator? They are still high-energy oil products after all, and no longer mixed in with all kinds of wet biomass.

Exactly what I've been saying for years. Public perception of incinerators is pretty poor though.

There are a couple European countries that burn all their waste. Sweden has been _importing_ waste to burn for a while. Switzerland is now retrieving various kinds of metals from the ashes. Ireland has installed an incinerator at a landmark position in the focal point of all the Dublin's shoreline.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#149

Post by lrem » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 7:05 AM UTC

tedk-42 wrote: post #142

ppf wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly what I've been saying for years. Public perception of incinerators is pretty poor though.

They produce a lot of toxic gases as the plastics often contain a variety of elements which when burned formed nasty compounds

Filtering that out is a solved engineering problem and you still remain energy positive.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#150

Post by lrem » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 7:08 AM UTC

octoberfranklin wrote: post #135

> Smith allowed people to put two plastic items in their bins: soda bottles and milk jugs. He lost money on them, he says, but the aluminum, paper and steel from his regular business helped offset the costs. Wait, what?! He should've just said "aluminum paper and steel only" and earned greater profits. It's not like people have a choice of recycling providers. The plastic recycling catastrophe wasn't caused by advert…

I pay 1.5CHF per 35l trash bag ($1.65 per 9.2 gallons) and recycling does not accept plastic other than bottles. Still have no way to evade plastic packaging.