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How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#21

Post by David »

cribbles wrote: post #6

This article makes it sound like the main bottleneck in the first-run recycling process is sorting. Could anyone with knowledge around ML, robotics and the like chime in on napkin math around novel labor-reducing approaches to improving the operating economics here? From the sound of it, this is not really a solvable problem short of some leapfrog technological advance. Even then, you don’t want to spend more energy…

A friend and former boss of mine founded CleanRobotics which makes the TrashBot, a trash can that sorts trash from recyclables: https://cleanrobotics.com/trashbot/

I haven't seen the output so I can't comment on how well they work firsthand, but the idea is pretty cool. As far as I know (which is not far) they don't attempt to sort recyclables by material, unfortunately.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#22

Post by dragontamer »

aidenn0 wrote: post #17
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The tiny little recycling symbols seem pretty useless, unless you force consumers to hand-sort their recyclables according to them. It gets worse: in King County, WA (Seattle metro area) where WM has most of the contracts we received leaflets from WM telling us to ignore the plastic recycling symbols entirely and to use only WM's "what we can / can't recycle" picture chart - which includes things I didn't think wer…

Plastic films can be recycled in theory, they just can't be put into sorting machines, as they tend to gum up the works. If you had a big box of just PLA films, you could recycle it just like any other hunk of PLA, but getting to the big box of PLA films is not feasible.

Another issue with film is that its too lightweight to be worth the hassle.

The economics of recycling is that objects are paid per pound. 1lb of steel is pretty easy to collect. In contrast: 1lb of plastic film, even if its theoretically recyclable, is infeasible to sort and recycle with an economic profit.

Aluminum foil is another one: my local recycling does NOT accept Aluminum foil. Aluminum is one of the "best recycling" materials too, but foil is just too small and lightweight to be worth the hassle.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#23

Post by ip26 »

barrkel wrote: post #20
x87678r wrote: post #4

I can't remember where I read it but there was the view that recycling allows people to think they're environmentally responsible when they aren't. eg the typical family has multiple cars, lives in a big suburban house, has heating/ac buys loads of stuff but recycles their cardboard/glass so thinks their environmental impact is small.

Moral self-licensing. I think a lot of the Green movement has the trappings of a religion, with shame and guilt used as motivators, and expensive rituals like trash sorting used to evidence your membership of the group. I want to pay someone else to sort my trash. In fact, I want the cost of sorting my trash embedded in the costs of the goods I buy, so I - and in particular, my neighbours - have no motivation to burn…

I don't think that's because the Greenies want it that way, rather industry & large interests managed to deflect regulatory changes like this:

I want the cost of sorting my trash embedded in the costs of the goods I buy

By arguing that individuals can & should do it themselves, knowing full well only a small minority ever would.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#24

Post by Thorentis »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #11
ardy42 wrote: post #5

I wonder if sorting could be made feasible by mandating color-coding of different types of plastic? Like PET has to be clear, HDPE white, PP green, etc.? Marketers and package designers may not like it, but whatever. The tiny little recycling symbols seem pretty useless, unless you force consumers to hand-sort their recyclables according to them.

> The tiny little recycling symbols seem pretty useless, unless you force consumers to hand-sort their recyclables according to them. It gets worse: in King County, WA (Seattle metro area) where WM has most of the contracts we received leaflets from WM telling us to ignore the plastic recycling symbols entirely and to use only WM's "what we can / can't recycle" picture chart - which includes things I didn't think wer…

Where I am, pizza boxes are put in the green bins (eg along with garden clippings) since they end up being composted and used in council landscaping tasks/sold etc. You can also put used tissues, paper towels, and so on in the green bin.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#25

Post by dmurray »

newacct583 wrote: post #19
fmajid wrote: post #7

Yes, it’s a scam. Only aluminum actually gets recycled. It’s time to tax plastic so companies start using paper products (even if they go to landfill, they will at least sequester carbon there) or aluminum.

Also glass and steel. Rare earth materials like batteries are very productively recycled. Paper recycling isn't awful either, but more of a wash than a win. Really, it's thermoplastic disposables that are the real problem here. Those don't recycle (except some very specific items), and frankly never really did. The straw bans are just the tip of the iceberg here. We need to be talking about banning all plastic dispos…

Paper/cardboard can be quite worthwhile. This article [0] was discussed on HN not so long ago. And some plastics too (I used to work for a firm that sold its waste PVC).

The real discrepancy is between consumers and businesses recycling. Businesses can have a clean, unadulterated stream of waste, likely trivial for them to sort at scale. Most consumer recycling is useful for awareness at best and distraction at worst, like California shaming people into fixing their leaky taps during droughts when a billion times as much water is diverted to almond farming.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51420503

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#26

Post by reportingsjr »

newacct583 wrote: post #19
fmajid wrote: post #7

Yes, it’s a scam. Only aluminum actually gets recycled. It’s time to tax plastic so companies start using paper products (even if they go to landfill, they will at least sequester carbon there) or aluminum.

Also glass and steel. Rare earth materials like batteries are very productively recycled. Paper recycling isn't awful either, but more of a wash than a win. Really, it's thermoplastic disposables that are the real problem here. Those don't recycle (except some very specific items), and frankly never really did. The straw bans are just the tip of the iceberg here. We need to be talking about banning all plastic dispos…

You nailed it.

In the last day or two the midwestern city I live in (Cincinnati) banned single use plasic bags, and a major manufacturer here (P&G) is very slowly working towards making some products slightly more recyclable/use less plastic. So there is a little bit of hope!

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#27

Post by Scoundreller »

Thorentis wrote: post #24
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The tiny little recycling symbols seem pretty useless, unless you force consumers to hand-sort their recyclables according to them. It gets worse: in King County, WA (Seattle metro area) where WM has most of the contracts we received leaflets from WM telling us to ignore the plastic recycling symbols entirely and to use only WM's "what we can / can't recycle" picture chart - which includes things I didn't think wer…

Where I am, pizza boxes are put in the green bins (eg along with garden clippings) since they end up being composted and used in council landscaping tasks/sold etc. You can also put used tissues, paper towels, and so on in the green bin.

It's possible they just do this with all paper products in some areas.

If demand for recycled paper isn't high, it's easier to have some cities sort carefully for high-value recycling, and other cities mix in greasy paper/towels/tissue since it's all getting shredded into compost anyway.

I've been composting paper this year. It makes a good sub for peat moss (which is not very renewable!).

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#28

Post by Scoundreller »

reportingsjr wrote: post #26
newacct583 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also glass and steel. Rare earth materials like batteries are very productively recycled. Paper recycling isn't awful either, but more of a wash than a win. Really, it's thermoplastic disposables that are the real problem here. Those don't recycle (except some very specific items), and frankly never really did. The straw bans are just the tip of the iceberg here. We need to be talking about banning all plastic dispos…

You nailed it. In the last day or two the midwestern city I live in (Cincinnati) banned single use plasic bags, and a major manufacturer here (P&G) is very slowly working towards making some products slightly more recyclable/use less plastic. So there is a little bit of hope!

> a major manufacturer here (P&G) is very slowly working towards making some products slightly more recyclable/use less plastic

After decades of shrinkflation? (reducing the amount of product per package, so you need to buy more packages per year)

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#29

Post by worker767424 »

I'm sympathetic to litter concern, especially in the ocean, and some of the chemicals involved like BPA are a little worrying, but overall, the emissions involved just aren't that significant compared to other parts of modern life, and disposal is mostly a political problem. Developed countries that aren't Sweden aren't excited about burning trash, and countries like the US with tons of land somehow aren't that interested in burying trash.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#30

Post by dylan604 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #3

Recycling, like wearing a mask during a pandemic, is just too boring a solution for most of America. They'd rather put the effort into coming up with a story that makes everything someone else's fault even as they pay the price for their own idiocy.

Sadly, I would agree with this. People expect BigPharma to come up with a pill to make Covid a non-issue even if they think it is a hoax. Some of these same "hoaxers" are people that have told me recycling is a scam as well. I've even countered that the homeless people collecting cans/bottles from trashcans aren't doing it because it's fun. Once, one of these conversations actually came with "evidence". I was provided a link to a story about a waste disposal company from some other city taking their collected recycling to the same city dump as the regular trash. Logically, all recycling is handled this way in their mind.
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