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Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

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Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#141

Post by Nursie »

kbos87 wrote: post #24

It seems very tough to draw any conclusions on this just yet. The media has clearly latched onto a storyline of a mass exodus from American cities, but the reality is probably much more complex. It seems plausible that SF already had such low inventory numbers that any change would look huge on a chart like this, though that doesn’t appear to be the case in the other highly competitive markets seen here. I’d love to…

> But cities have enduring appeal - proximity to people and culture and things to do is just as much a factor as proximity to work.

Proximity to people may be something that loses appeal in the medium term.

This is a suspicion rather than anything that can be evidenced yet, we'll see how it plays out, but I think it might start counting as a negative, or less as a positive, for a while.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#142

Post by momokoko »

I think you have to realize this is San Francisco specifically. Not the entire Bay Area. A lot of people worked in places south of San Francisco and then commuted south because SF is basically the only city nearby that isn’t awful. But now that everything is closed down, all the good parts of SF are generally gone. Who wants to live in a cramped apartment with too many roommates and no yard? The trade was always that there were a lot of fun and interesting things to do and interesting people to meet. All of that side of the bargain is gone. With everything closed, most people would rather live in another part of the Bay Area where you can at least have a small yard and more space indoors.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#143

Post by kirse »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #62
_8j50 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, give the homeless homes and don't complain about homeless shelters in your upscale neighborhood. Reform police, there are major american cities with protests and minimal violence. You complain about symptoms with no regard for the root cause.

Unfortunately, giving the homeless homes doesn't work. For the economically disadvantaged, of course providing free or low cost housing is helpful and welcome. But for the majority, who have mental illness and/or substance abuse issues, a shelter or home often makes little difference. Witness for example the experiment in Manhattan to provide some homeless men with hotel rooms. They literally go downstairs to poop in…

Unfortunately, giving the homeless homes doesn't work.

It does though. Cities like Philadelphia and states like Utah solve it this way and both the homeless per capita + the return-to-homeless rate are nationally very low:

Together with our many nonprofit partners, the City provides 11,503 emergency, temporary and permanent “beds.” Last year we helped 970 families and individuals from-homeless-to-housed. Our permanent housing programs have an average 90% success rate in preventing a return to homelessness.

http://philadelphiaofficeofhomelessservices.org/know-homeles...

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#144

Post by kbenson »

kbos87 wrote: post #24

It seems very tough to draw any conclusions on this just yet. The media has clearly latched onto a storyline of a mass exodus from American cities, but the reality is probably much more complex. It seems plausible that SF already had such low inventory numbers that any change would look huge on a chart like this, though that doesn’t appear to be the case in the other highly competitive markets seen here. I’d love to…

The article actually notes this:

> It should be noted that San Francisco had an unusually low inventory relative to other large cities prior to the pandemic. Historically, the ratio of homes for sale relative to total housing has been a quarter of New York's.

But then they go on to assert that this is important regardless, but don't actually provide any information to back it up.

> Regardless, the 96% year on year change in inventory marks a significant moment.

I would assume if it was so self evident, it would be easy for them to include even a sentence that alludes as to why.

They say other nearby markets don't see the same shift but other nearby markets were never like SF anyway, so I'm not sure why they would indicate something in a market already known to be dissimilar.

Edit: I and the parent comment were referring to the SFGate article from another submission that got merged I to this one, as we were before the merge.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#145

Post by macspoofing »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #135
captaincole wrote: post #102

I am living in SF now and this confirms a very clear pattern that I have seen emerging, particularly of tech workers. I would say that >50% of the people I know who were living in the city have left, or are in the process of leaving. Some examples (there are countless): 1) All three of the roommates that I had are choosing to leave either permanently or temporarily. 2) A friend who works for google who is going on a…

Your friends are how representative of SF people? 1. Going on a road trip right now is a very bad idea 2. Most normal people don't have the ability (I guess if you're a high performer in tech?) to move to another high income English speaking country. 3. Moving to Santa Cruz is a joke if you're worried about cost of living. 4. Same with Austin.

>Your friends are how representative of SF people?

OP didn't say that. They said that their anecdotal experience matches the argument in the article. Somehow you decided not only to argue with OP on this point, but also to argue about the way OP's roommates and friends decided to handle remote work (from taking a road-trip to moving back home to Australia). What's your reasoning for that?

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#146

Post by gojomo »

tjr225 wrote: post #92
fountainofage wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those activities are also restricted and limited during COVID - either explicitly via state and local ordinances or via social pressures to not spread the virus. Basically, the optimal solution right now is to not go anywhere or see anyone unless you absolutely have to. Which if all someone should be doing is sitting at home or getting groceries, they could do that for a lot less than SF prices.

Hiking/cycling/camping can be crazy socially distant and probably one of the best things you can do for your own mental and physical health right now. A ride up Tam isn’t going to be any more or less dangerous than it was before. Outside of a few extremely popular spots it is not restricted in Washington, at least to my knowledge. If it is in the Bay/CA then it is news to me. In any case, that stuff will still be the…

Er, there's plenty of natural beauty, hiking/cycling/camping, & peaks higher than Mt. Tam east of Rockies, and even east of the Mississippi.

Otherwise, your point about there still being plenty of healthy ways to get out of the home, both practically and in accordance with official guidelines, is well-made.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#147

Post by DanBC »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #62
_8j50 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, give the homeless homes and don't complain about homeless shelters in your upscale neighborhood. Reform police, there are major american cities with protests and minimal violence. You complain about symptoms with no regard for the root cause.

Unfortunately, giving the homeless homes doesn't work. For the economically disadvantaged, of course providing free or low cost housing is helpful and welcome. But for the majority, who have mental illness and/or substance abuse issues, a shelter or home often makes little difference. Witness for example the experiment in Manhattan to provide some homeless men with hotel rooms. They literally go downstairs to poop in…

> Unfortunately, giving the homeless homes doesn't work. For the economically disadvantaged, of course providing free or low cost housing is helpful and welcome.

> But for the majority, who have mental illness and/or substance abuse issues, a shelter or home often makes little difference.

I'd question your stats about mental illness and substance misuse disorder, but even if we accept that most homeless people are either mentally ill, or addicted, or both: how do you expect them to engage with treatment when they're living on the street?

"Homes first" is a key part of many homeless health programmes. See this example, called "housing first": https://hfe.homeless.org.uk/about-housing-first

> is restoration of residential mental care facilities that were largely torn down in the 1970s in favor of mainstreaming the mentally ill.

We really really don't need to go back to the days of asylums that held people for many years for relatively mild mental ill health.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#148

Post by mvn9 »

wwwwwwwww wrote: post #59
roenxi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All analogies break down fairly quickly, so I'll preface this with a clear vote of support for what you said. But in this case the purpose of a hospital is to provide for the sick. The purpose of a city is to do the opposite of homelessness - a city is a massive collection of homes. The existence of a large homeless population is concerning for reasons you allude to, but because a more appropriate analogy might be "t…

> the purpose of a hospital is to provide for the sick And the purpose of society is to provide for its people. All of them.

That depends on your society. America is made of people who have left their societies to start something on their own. At what point in history have those people turned into a society that cares for each other beyond personal relations?

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#149

Post by willio58 »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #135
captaincole wrote: post #102

I am living in SF now and this confirms a very clear pattern that I have seen emerging, particularly of tech workers. I would say that >50% of the people I know who were living in the city have left, or are in the process of leaving. Some examples (there are countless): 1) All three of the roommates that I had are choosing to leave either permanently or temporarily. 2) A friend who works for google who is going on a…

Your friends are how representative of SF people? 1. Going on a road trip right now is a very bad idea 2. Most normal people don't have the ability (I guess if you're a high performer in tech?) to move to another high income English speaking country. 3. Moving to Santa Cruz is a joke if you're worried about cost of living. 4. Same with Austin.

Why is going on a road trip a bad idea? I mean bring a mask, only shop weekly and keep food refrigerated, and keep social distance.
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