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TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

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Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#141

Post by _8j50 »

khuey wrote: post #55
_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

There's no general First Amendment right to free speech for foreign nationals not physically present in the US.

The right here is for americans to talk to a foreign national the right belongs to americans not tiktok.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#142

Post by arcturus17 »

disgu wrote: post #120
arcturus17 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not, because the separation of powers guarantees that if he botches the Executive Order and it has no legal ground, it will fall under the weight of the Law. No such mechanisms exists in an authoritarian regime like the Chinese.

I'm not sure what you're on about. Authoritarian states do have laws to justify what they do. Even Saudi Arabia has them. You can get a lawyer, you can get a judge to review your case, you can appeal decisions. They do have separation of power as well. Read up about the countless cases in those countries. Enforcing national security laws are very, very often the reason for the most fucked up judgements. All those cas…

> Authoritarian states do have laws to justify what they do

From my original comment, which you replied to:

> There are laws in China, but ultimately a corporation is subject to the whims of the Chinese Communist Party.

Either you didn't read that part, chose to omit it, or you are being deliberately rude, questioning "what I'm on about".

The difference between those authoritarian regimes and a democracy under the Rule of Law like the US is the degree in which the law can be arbitrarily superseded by an authority, such as a Party or Ruler, breaking the separation of powers.

Comparing the legal systems and guarantees of China, North Korea or Saudi Arabia, with those of the US is disingenuous at best.

You did not address the fundamental point which is that an Executive Order can be challenged in a Court of Law - it will be, in fact.

Do you think a decision by the CCP, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong-Un or Mohammad Bin Salman would be afforded the same level of guarantees?

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#143

Post by panpanna »

Not sure what to feel about this one.

I don't like this company, which has already started censoring foreign nationals based on what CCP allows.

At the same time, how can a single person decide the fate of a company in a different country? What will be next?

Furthermore, what if EU decides Instagram is somehow a threat and must be shut down?

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#144

Post by tveita »

OneGuy123 wrote: post #26

Imagine US companies suing China for not allowing them to operate there. People would say "China can decide what they want to allow". Well if China can decide (which they did first) two can play this game. Also TikTok says this ban is baseless. If USA's ban of TikTok is baseless, what base does China have for banning everything?

People would say "This lawsuit is unlikely to succeed in an authoritarian state and either way the important thing is not whether US companies can operate there, but the Chinese government's violations of human rights and curtailing of freedom of their own citizens, and that's what we should be using our social and economic power to address."

If the "game" is censorship and social control of citizens, why on earth would you cheer on either side in a tit-for-tat?

People are pretending this is about IP or free trade, but it's not like China is going to let people install Signal so US teenagers can install TikTok.

Best case scenario is what, a Chinese operated and moderated version of Facebook while the US administration gets to moderate TikTok in the US? Or the Great US Firewall? Or China just endorses Trump and he drops the whole thing.

There are tons of legitimate criticisms of China but if this isn't motivated by any of them the outcome is unlikely to be help.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#145

Post by panpanna »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #18
bawolff wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: would it matter if they stored data in mainland china? Wouldn't it still be fine if they are storing data there but not giving it to china gov? (Not that i really believe that any data in china is safe from gov, although i could say the same about usa, but what is the actual bar that the us gov has to meet to show its a national security risk? Is data on china soil sufficient?)

> Wouldn't it still be fine if they are storing data there but not giving it to china gov? That situation does not exist. Chinese law basically means that any data held in China can be accessed by the government at any time.

Yeah, buy according to US law American companies must comply with government requests even if the data is stored abroad.

So basically, why should anyone trust a US company if US thinks tiktok giving data to their government is a problem?

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#146

Post by boomboomsubban »

throwaway129012 wrote: post #134
_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

I'm far from understanding the legal complexity, but one analogy I consider here is what it'd be like to ban a particular brand or country of origin of pens, or cellphones, or routers. Those things are definitely used for speech, and banning them all would likely be an issue. But banning a brand of pens because you don't trust the chemicals in them as safe or routers because you're concerned about potential spy ware,…

>. But banning a brand of pens because you don't trust the chemicals in them as safe or routers because you're concerned about potential spy ware, seems reasonable.

Banning the pen is legitimate as knowingly harming people is a crime.

Banning the router isn't the same. At most they are guilty of false advertising, and even that can probably be made legal in the license provided. Besides, I may have reasons to want a router with spyware on it.

The same would apply to TikTok, but I think they're trying to say it's also "aiding our enemies" making it akin to a light form of treason.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#147

Post by _8j50 »

throwaway129012 wrote: post #134
_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

I'm far from understanding the legal complexity, but one analogy I consider here is what it'd be like to ban a particular brand or country of origin of pens, or cellphones, or routers. Those things are definitely used for speech, and banning them all would likely be an issue. But banning a brand of pens because you don't trust the chemicals in them as safe or routers because you're concerned about potential spy ware,…

> I'd assume the claim here would be that it presents national security risk, though of course I think that's probably not why the ban is really happening, and it makes sense for it to be challenged.

Yeah, but they lack the authority. National security does not override anyone's rights. They don't get to do this regardless if their intent. This sets a precedent where if they can claim any entity is a national security risk they can restrict communication with that entitiy. Totalitarian regimes do this exact thing when they ban certain social media or VPNs!

It's diffrent from banning a brand of pens because you're banning commercial activity and the danger is a chemical not speech. Here you're sayiny speech itself is too dangerous to be allowed. A clear line preventing the government from doing this for a reason.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#148

Post by rjtavares »

sbmthakur wrote: post #136
gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

One difference between TikTok and other companies is that they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests.

Facebook is a company that has plans for (and has achieved) global dominance and is not aligned with European interests.

Boeing is a company backed by an entity which has plans for (and has achieved) global dominance and is increasingly not aligned with European interests.

I know there's a huge difference between the US Government and the Chinese Government, but that difference is decreasing. And Facebook, well I simply do not trust them.

Honestly, I fear what this is leading to.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#149

Post by catsarebetter »

gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

Ah interesting, I think I remember Congress asking the tech CEOs if China stole data from the us shortly before the tik tok announcement, I wonder if there's a connection there.

But we use a ton of Chinese tech software and hardware outside of Tiktok, are they gonna ban them all?

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#150

Post by panpanna »

dannyw wrote: post #132
bawolff wrote: post #6

> The app has also been used to antagonize the president, including when thousands of teens reserved tickets to the president's rally in Tulsa, Okla., with no intention of going, inflating the Trump campaign's expectations for the event and causing embarrassment over the disappointing turnout. Forgot that was organized on tiktok. All makes sense now. If US was really interested in national security i'm pretty sure zo…

While I don’t trust zoom, it is an American company and there’s serious issues with that.

Slightly off topic:

Zoom is owned by a Chinese-American entrepreneur.

China has in past managed to force Chinese abroad to spy for them by threatening their families in China.

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