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TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

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Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#131

Post by sbmthakur »

ladberg wrote: post #28
OneGuy123 wrote: post #26

Imagine US companies suing China for not allowing them to operate there. People would say "China can decide what they want to allow". Well if China can decide (which they did first) two can play this game. Also TikTok says this ban is baseless. If USA's ban of TikTok is baseless, what base does China have for banning everything?

Why does China doing something make it ok for the US to do it too?

US companies get access to one market while Chinese companies get access to both markets. While this isn't exactly fair, I don't think Americans are bothered by this. But I guess that won't be the case when most of the Americans get used to a Chinese app and criticism of the CCP is suppressed.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#132

Post by dannyw »

bawolff wrote: post #6

> The app has also been used to antagonize the president, including when thousands of teens reserved tickets to the president's rally in Tulsa, Okla., with no intention of going, inflating the Trump campaign's expectations for the event and causing embarrassment over the disappointing turnout. Forgot that was organized on tiktok. All makes sense now. If US was really interested in national security i'm pretty sure zo…

While I don’t trust zoom, it is an American company and there’s serious issues with that.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#133

Post by DetroitThrow »

gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

I sure hope they would, but I'm increasing cynical about the US's ability to legislate on this issue though.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#134

Post by throwaway129012 »

_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

I'm far from understanding the legal complexity, but one analogy I consider here is what it'd be like to ban a particular brand or country of origin of pens, or cellphones, or routers.

Those things are definitely used for speech, and banning them all would likely be an issue. But banning a brand of pens because you don't trust the chemicals in them as safe or routers because you're concerned about potential spy ware, seems reasonable.

In that sense, TikTok is just one of many alternatives and if the motivation isn't to regulate speech, it feels like it could fit with other bans that seem reasonable to me.

I'd assume the claim here would be that it presents national security risk, though of course I think that's probably not why the ban is really happening, and it makes sense for it to be challenged.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#135

Post by mantap »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #126
OneGuy123 wrote: post #26

Imagine US companies suing China for not allowing them to operate there. People would say "China can decide what they want to allow". Well if China can decide (which they did first) two can play this game. Also TikTok says this ban is baseless. If USA's ban of TikTok is baseless, what base does China have for banning everything?

This would be a better argument if the US was doing the same thing China is doing. China has censorship laws that you might not like, but you can certainly still choose to comply if you want to be in that market. Indeed, many US companies have chosen to do so and participate in that market while others feel the cost is too high and do not. What could TikTok do to comply here and be allowed in the US? It wasn't banned…

That's not correct. To enter the Chinese market you need to do it with a Chinese company.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#136

Post by sbmthakur »

gampleman wrote: post #121

So if the problem is that TikTok is gathering too much invasive data on US citizens (and supposedly siphoning it to China), and their defence is basically "So what, it's legal and everyone else is doing it too!", then isn't the obvious solution making actual digital privacy legislation that would make such data vacuuming illegal? That would solve the problem and make the American market a fair playing field rather th…

One difference between TikTok and other companies is that they are backed by an entity which has plans for global dominance and are not exactly aligned with American interests.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#137

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

virtue3 wrote: post #119
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is congress not involved if it's so important? Congress creates laws. The President enforces them. This is an enforcement action--it's not unusual for Congress to be uninvolved. > Should the president really have this power? Multiple Congresses gave these powers to the President [1][2][3]. The current and next ones are free to take them back. My personal belief is no, the President shouldn't have this power in…

IMHO TikTok being owned by the CCP now is a clear and present danger to all Americans using the app. You make some fair points, but there is no way that I would trust a government agency to actually do code reviews and verify that a company isn't doing something wrong. I feel increasingly unsafe because this app is being operated by a company that is beyond extradition with the USA. So if they ARE busted for doing ba…

It's owned by ByteDance, not the CPC.

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#138

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

chrisco255 wrote: post #63
sschueller wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like in the US..., you just need a warrant which is just paperwork.

Unfortunately the FISA courts have been abused like crazy. But warrants aren't just paperwork. If you're charged with a crime but the prosecution has violated your rights, you can walk free in the U.S. You have multiple layers of appeals courts to go through if you get railroaded. The CCP is truly authoritarian and rules and laws are what they say they are. Not even remotely equivalent.

Snowden revealed a FISA warrant that granted access to data on all Verizon calls. At the point that courts are granting such broad (and blatantly unconstitutional) warrants, warrants don't matter any more.

1. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-reco...

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#139

Post by _8j50 »

kittiepryde wrote: post #96
_8j50 wrote: post #51

Is this not a freedom of speech issue? The right is guaranteed for foreingners in the US as well. If they can ban tik tok, they can ban signal or briar because those also might send your encrypted data overseas or because their use among "violent" protestors is a risk. How about VPN apps that siphon your personal data to china and russia! Haha Here's the thing, US bigtech complies (in secret) with US intel community…

'If americans want to be spied on by China in exchange for being able to use tiktok it's their right' I think you're argument breaks down here. I don't think that handimf over information to a foreign government is a right. I was unable to Google for a definitive answer, but maybe a more knowledgeable person could chime in. The US already has export restrictions on knowledge ( for example encryption ) to foreign gove…

Encryption is seen as a tool and a weapon,not as speech. You have the right to choose who you communicate with. Handing over your information to a foreign government,even an enemy state at war is your right. What you don't have a right to do is to share confidential information or information that is not about yourself that will aid a foreign power. The key here is that the information id about you and no one else, this information belongs to you and you have a right to communicate with foreign entities (freedom of speech does not constrain you to speak only to citizens in america). Freedom of speech applies because you are on US soil, not because tiktok is or isn't. On that same note, you get to tell foreign governments about your experience in the US, if you are persecuted or in fear for your life and your government can't protect you (to seek asylum for example). So I'd say communication with foreign countries and governments about unpriviledged information and first hand accounts is a right. Unless of course you live in china or korea in which case you can't make your government look bad or share information about internal conditions (such as starving population).

Re: TikTok to Sue U.S. over Ban

#140

Post by sbmthakur »

DetroitThrow wrote: post #52
baddox wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that unique to Chinese law?

The unique part of Chinese law is the lack of judicial supremacy or "rule of law". The party has supremacy over legal system interpretation as part of the '3 Supremes' order of precedence, with workers also coming ahead of the law. In the US system, there are still miscarriages of Justice, but there is judicial supremacy and separation of powers. The powers aren't as separated as say the French justice system, but mo…

> The party has supremacy over legal system interpretation as part of the '3 Supremes' order of precedence, with workers also coming ahead of the law.

Very few people are aware about this. The party is supreme and institutions like PLA are answerable to the party, not to the people.

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