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Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

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Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#141

Post by HideousKojima »

free_rms wrote: post #133
room271 wrote: post #9

This kind of thing is going to play out a lot over the next few years. It's a tough question: how to marry globalisation with the political realities. When China was very poor, it didn't really matter, or perhaps the assumption was that China would liberalise more quickly than it has. But China, while increasingly mature economically, has not developed proper civil society, human rights, freedom of expression, democr…

Different != Improper. They're not perfect, but over the last 30 years they lifted half a billion out of poverty and didn't wage war all over the world. Not everything needs to be wrapped in our style of propaganda, sometimes it can be wrapped in other brands instead.

Percentagewise, China hasn't done any better than South Korea or Taiwan at lifting their populace out of poverty. So I don't see how that comes anywhere close to excusing China's human rights abuses. And while SK and Taiwan only became democracies relatively recently, their human rights abuses even before then pale in comparison to what China is currently doing to Uighurs, Tibetans, and religious minorities in general. So yes, if anything improper is putting things too lightly.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#142

Post by throwawaybab323 »

jaekash wrote: post #137
throwawaybab323 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It is a bit weird that there are whole movements like BDS setup against Isreal, a wholly democratic and liberal country where people of all religions enjoy the same rights and nobody is placed in concentration camps, while every time someone mentions that China is a bad actor we get asked why does BDS not exists. BDS does exist, and China is a bad actor and should be opposed.

Yea I'm just pointing out it doesn't work in the slightest. I agree with you for the most part. Especially in the case of China which for the most part is self sufficient. While israel relies on american intervention to even run sufficiently. But I also want to point out the groups perpetuating this in america are the republicans who dont actually care and are doing for xenophobic reasons not for the best interest of the people in these camps especially when they run their own.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#143

Post by gspr »

__alexs wrote: post #102
Waterfall wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. They're using machine learning to generate social scores. If you don't like America or the UK, you can leave. Try doing that in China. Dying in a free zone is preferable to the enslavement that the Chinese are subjected to. Freedom has a price, and it's not racist to not like these horrible cultural values or to go against them.

> China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. Is putting other countries citizens in concentration camps somehow morally superior? > They're using machine learning to generate social scores. America also has this they just call it a "credit score" or "klout". > If you don't like America or the UK, you can leave. Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living…

[flagged]

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#144

Post by jaekash »

dsomers wrote: post #121
jaekash wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A prison is not a concentration camp, US has a justice system with the right to trial and appeal, and if the people in prison actually committed crimes then I'm not sure what the problem is.

When a fifteen year old can be put into prison for years in some U.S. states for some weed it hardly makes makes the U.S. look like it values human rights. It’s more akin to the U.S. being ‘the skinniest kid in fat camp.’ Congratulations on being better than China and Saudi Arabia I guess...

> When a fifteen year old can be put into prison for years in some U.S. states for some weed it hardly makes makes the U.S. look like it values human rights.

Would like to see some examples of this, and numbers of this. I really doubt this is widespread.

And further, if it does happen, it would have to get through prosecutors, jury, governors, etc - all of who will completely eaten alive by the press if the kid could even be misinterpreted to be a minority in the USA and the whole world would know about it. Where if someone mentions China is not exactly a good actor we get a whataboutism shitstorm.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#145

Post by bzb3 »

room271 wrote: post #9

This kind of thing is going to play out a lot over the next few years. It's a tough question: how to marry globalisation with the political realities. When China was very poor, it didn't really matter, or perhaps the assumption was that China would liberalise more quickly than it has. But China, while increasingly mature economically, has not developed proper civil society, human rights, freedom of expression, democr…

It's not like the UK is a paragon of freedom of expression.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#146

Post by gspr »

einpoklum wrote: post #56
room271 wrote: post #9

This kind of thing is going to play out a lot over the next few years. It's a tough question: how to marry globalisation with the political realities. When China was very poor, it didn't really matter, or perhaps the assumption was that China would liberalise more quickly than it has. But China, while increasingly mature economically, has not developed proper civil society, human rights, freedom of expression, democr…

"Proper civil society and human rights" - like the ones afforded to Julian Assange? Or the treatment of the Grenfell tower victims' families? Glass houses etc.

> "Proper civil society and human rights" - like the ones afforded to Julian Assange? Or the treatment of the Grenfell tower victims' families?

Now imagine a society where every dissident is treated like Assange, and every poor nobody is treated like the Grenfell tower residents. And with no recourse. And no free media to spread the outrage. And no reasonable expectation of privacy to even discuss the matter privately as a third party with other third parties. And no way to even talk about voting out those responsible.

That's China. Take your false equivalence elsewhere.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#147

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

rich_sasha wrote: post #78
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your questions aren't about telecoms hardware, but about politics and the international flow of power. China is slated to take over the world economically. Their political model has the potential to spread around the world. These are attempts to limit China's capacity to grow as fast while inhibiting their capacity to knock out, intercept, or backdoor critical infrastructure.

Yeah, this I get and, well, sympathise in a way. There is no war, but an ongoing struggle for staying ahead economically, and if this is a part of it, at least there is a logic to it. I’m asking, is there really a security risk that Huawei might listen in on telecoms. Is traffic at the low level more vulnerable somehow? Is it the prevalence of unencrypted communications? Is it leaking of metadata that people are worr…

Yes, the risk is real. Imagine the US made phones for Russia during the Cold War, and the phones were so complicated and full of microcontrollers that reverse engineering and ensuring that a backdoor wasn't in place was impossible. Do you really think the US wouldn't have taken advantage of that?

The specific technical risk is unknown, though. There are thousands of microcontrollers in a modern advanced electronic device. It's nearly impossible to inspect each one and see what exactly is backdoored and how.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#148

Post by Waterfall »

totalZero wrote: post #113
rich_sasha wrote: post #38

If this is just Realpolitik/hardware independence, fine, but security..? Any worthwhile Internet traffic should be encrypted in 2020, and if it isn’t, Huawei probably isn’t the most immediate concern. And if it is encrypted, does it really matter who is listening? Comments welcome, I know zilch about telecoms hardware.

You're missing one of the largest risk vectors in the whole 5G game. 5G operates on higher frequency and requires a larger density of base stations. If you can identify individual devices -- even without cracking the encryption they use -- then you can track them them geographically, and also conduct traffic analysis. 5G presents a potential security risk because it allows far greater granularity of device localizati…

I don't know if I want 5G. It sounds like wimax but faster. I don't think it gives that much benefit, triangulation already was able to bomb a terrorist in Russia in the 90s. How much worst could it get?

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#149

Post by orwin »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #27
mytailorisrich wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to Huawei in 5G is either Nokia or Ericsson. As an European I don't what to think that the US seems so against kit from a Chinese company and completely fine with kit from an European company. They should be worried about both. We also have a long term world domination plan (version 2.0)... ;)

Maybe the fact that one is a totalitarian state and the other is an ally?

But for at least Portugal and Greece, and maybe Italy and some eastern European countries, the ally is china since 2014?

While Obama made his move over SE Asia, the CCP applied the strategy they used in Australia with the PIGS. And while Trump very successfully destroyed what Obama tried to do in SE Asia, the CCP installed foreign military bases near center of trade in the Indian ocean while gaining political goodwill with middle east poorest countries. Most of Iraki oil is sold to China.

I'm not claiming i know what should be done, i'm just saying that China have already a lot of political allies and try to gain more, and now reached europe.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#150

Post by free_rms »

HideousKojima wrote: post #141
free_rms wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different != Improper. They're not perfect, but over the last 30 years they lifted half a billion out of poverty and didn't wage war all over the world. Not everything needs to be wrapped in our style of propaganda, sometimes it can be wrapped in other brands instead.

Percentagewise, China hasn't done any better than South Korea or Taiwan at lifting their populace out of poverty. So I don't see how that comes anywhere close to excusing China's human rights abuses. And while SK and Taiwan only became democracies relatively recently, their human rights abuses even before then pale in comparison to what China is currently doing to Uighurs, Tibetans, and religious minorities in genera…

I think you're understating the human rights impact of going from third world to first world living standards. You like having your teeth?
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