Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key? • Hacker News Board

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#141

Post by gripfx » Mon, Jul 06, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #140

dyyni wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A budget cap is one solution to keep design regulations to a minimum and ensure that smaller teams can compete. F1 introduced a $145 million budget cap for the 2021 season, going down to $135 million for 2023-25 seasons. Right now the three biggest teams (MB, Ferrari, Red Bull) spend somewhere around half a billion or so per season.

But that’s not a solution for balancing the concerns of the two competitions. The new regs are going to bring F1 closer to being a spec series than it’s ever been before. The budget cap is just a little over the current Haas budget. Personally I don’t find the prospect of watching a race with 10 Haas level teams in it to be a particularly compelling idea. I’m also not that excited about the idea of constructor innova…

I would be very surprised if Haas is spending anywhere close to the incoming budget cap. They arguably have the smallest expenditure thanks to the Ferrari parts deal and contracting the chassis out to Dallara. Of the current teams, I think only Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren (by a much smaller margin) are spending above the incoming cap.

Sealed ground effect will probably not return to F1, not for performance reasons but safety. Introducing the seal greatly increases downforce but once it is broken, the dropoff is incredible. Maintaining that would be nearly impossible with surface imperfections and debris on the track.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#142

Post by gripfx » Mon, Jul 06, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

mhh__ wrote: post #139

rurban wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limiting on testing is just taking away the unique Ferrari advantage. Previously they just took their design out on their private racetrack next to the lab. Now they have to test as all the others: virtually in computer simulations. And for a short time on the track. It's much more interesting to do the simulations virtually. Some even do the windtunnel testing now virtually. But only the richest.

It's the other way around. The richest teams use actual windtunnels. Correlation between reality and CFD has ruined cars in the past.

It is neither. All teams big or small use a wind tunnel. Simulation and regulation limits on computation mean that a virtual only development program is impossible. Virgin Racing tried it a while back and flopped completely. What some teams do though is use outside wind tunnels owned by others, like another team or Toyota Motorsport in Germany

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#143

Post by gripfx » Mon, Jul 06, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

sonofaragorn wrote: post #136

gripfx wrote: post #56

If anyone is interested, the software team I work for is hiring! F1 is definitely an interesting challenge and a unique work environment. Find out more here: https://jobs.redbull.com/at-de/bicester-scuderia-alphatauri-...

I've always been curious... do you worry about job security given how teams are sold and/or restructured every other year and how heavily they dependend on sponsors and results?

That is an interesting question. For me personally, no, not at my current life situation. For the most part, teams are subsidiaries of larger corporations and there is a little bit of security there. The privateer teams other than that pose some job security risk but most staff are highly skilled (normally to a post graduate level) and would be no different than joining a startup which might go bust at the end of runway.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#144

Post by AmericanChopper » Mon, Jul 06, 2020, 10:00 PM UTC

gripfx wrote: post #141

AmericanChopper wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that’s not a solution for balancing the concerns of the two competitions. The new regs are going to bring F1 closer to being a spec series than it’s ever been before. The budget cap is just a little over the current Haas budget. Personally I don’t find the prospect of watching a race with 10 Haas level teams in it to be a particularly compelling idea. I’m also not that excited about the idea of constructor innova…

I would be very surprised if Haas is spending anywhere close to the incoming budget cap. They arguably have the smallest expenditure thanks to the Ferrari parts deal and contracting the chassis out to Dallara. Of the current teams, I think only Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren (by a much smaller margin) are spending above the incoming cap. Sealed ground effect will probably not return to F1, not for performanc…

The Haas budget for last year was ~ $170 million, not all of that goes to capped expenses, but after you account for that it puts them just under the new cap (Williams, Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo all spend less than Haas). Renault, McLaren (about $270 million each) and Racing Point (about $190 million) are all above it. There are also 0 teams currently under the cap who make their own engines (Renault is the lowest budget non-customer team). So in terms of budget the current cap really does push everybody down to about the same level as Haas.

Regarding ground effect, the new 2021 regs have already brought it back. They’ve simplified the wing designs, and moved a lot of the downforce to ground effect. It’s not the same level of ground effect that F1 had in the 70s/80s, it’s more like the current IndyCar ground effect design. But the result from a following car perspective is the same. Moving the downforce from wake generating bodywork to under the chassis. However the overall effect is less downforce and therefore slower cars on circuit.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#145

Post by AmericanChopper » Mon, Jul 06, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #92

ethbro wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could definitely be managed better, to optimize for what they seem to be trying to (sport + performance). Budget caps seems like a cop-out though, as eventually the budgetary rules inherit all the complexity in the current technical rules. I think some kind of FRAND forced tech licensing / transfer + shared manufacturing would be an interesting solution. Whereby a hyper-optimized solution by a leading team can be…

There is something like that in the engine market where some teams are customers of other teams (usually with last year's engine)

Customer teams get exactly the same engine that the works team uses. The reason they don’t perform as well is that they still have to design the rest of their car (which includes a lot of performance impacting design), and they also may have to modify the engine to fit it in their chassis.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#146

Post by Ptrulli » Mon, Jul 06, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

arooaroo wrote: post #107

Ptrulli wrote: post #95

I see the formula one body always trying to change rules that effect car performance. The goal, more overtaking and competitive racing. My question is if they were to have more technology limitations meaning less area of improvement would that balance of 90% car 10% driver change for the better. Say 60% car and 40% driver. Wouldn't that make it more competitive?

The problem is that a lot of the investment comes from the large automotive manufacturers. Despite the fans and media interest in the drivers' championship, what really counts within the sport is the constructors' championship (the two are strongly correlated, of course). What makes the sport more interesting to the fans is not necessarily what motivates teams to participate. One could argue that there are many other…

I think you captured this perfectly with your explanation. I did not take into account the teams. I was solely concentrating from a fans perspective in error or from being a fan myself. So this delicate balance won't really change much due to the reason you outlined. I'm curious in your opinion what do you think could change that will affect the sport in a positive manner (from a fan and business perspective)?

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#147

Post by FrojoS » Mon, Jul 06, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

dyyni wrote: post #67

AmericanChopper wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also the balance that the FIA has never managed to maintain to anybody’s satisfaction. A lot of the issues with F1 stem from the fact that it’s actually two seperate competitions. If you let constructors build the fastest car that they safely can, then two bad things happen. Firstly, the fastest car will win. Secondly, the teams with less money can’t compete. The F1 brand is about having the most technologically…

A budget cap is one solution to keep design regulations to a minimum and ensure that smaller teams can compete. F1 introduced a $145 million budget cap for the 2021 season, going down to $135 million for 2023-25 seasons. Right now the three biggest teams (MB, Ferrari, Red Bull) spend somewhere around half a billion or so per season.

That means those teams will have to fire a majority of their workforce, no?

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#148

Post by gripfx » Mon, Jul 06, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #144

gripfx wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be very surprised if Haas is spending anywhere close to the incoming budget cap. They arguably have the smallest expenditure thanks to the Ferrari parts deal and contracting the chassis out to Dallara. Of the current teams, I think only Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren (by a much smaller margin) are spending above the incoming cap. Sealed ground effect will probably not return to F1, not for performanc…

The Haas budget for last year was ~ $170 million, not all of that goes to capped expenses, but after you account for that it puts them just under the new cap (Williams, Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo all spend less than Haas). Renault, McLaren (about $270 million each) and Racing Point (about $190 million) are all above it. There are also 0 teams currently under the cap who make their own engines (Renault is the lowest bu…

Those numbers are pretty generous, I would beg to differ on at least some of them. [1][2][3]

My mistake when you mentioned ground effect, I thought you meant sealed (skirts and fans). The ground effect you mean is already a thing in present F1 thanks to diffusers. The new rules have just made the diffuser bigger and simplified the front and rear wings.

[1] https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/07/todt-admits-2021-budget-...

[2] https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/27/the-cost-of-f1-2019-team...

[3] https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the-cost-of-f1-2019-part...

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#149

Post by AmericanChopper » Mon, Jul 06, 2020, 10:38 PM UTC

FrojoS wrote: post #147

dyyni wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A budget cap is one solution to keep design regulations to a minimum and ensure that smaller teams can compete. F1 introduced a $145 million budget cap for the 2021 season, going down to $135 million for 2023-25 seasons. Right now the three biggest teams (MB, Ferrari, Red Bull) spend somewhere around half a billion or so per season.

That means those teams will have to fire a majority of their workforce, no?

Yes. Ferrari has said they’re looking at entering other racing series (maybe IndyCar), but nothing confirmed.

Re: Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the key?

#150

Post by AmericanChopper » Mon, Jul 06, 2020, 10:56 PM UTC

gripfx wrote: post #148

AmericanChopper wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Haas budget for last year was ~ $170 million, not all of that goes to capped expenses, but after you account for that it puts them just under the new cap (Williams, Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo all spend less than Haas). Renault, McLaren (about $270 million each) and Racing Point (about $190 million) are all above it. There are also 0 teams currently under the cap who make their own engines (Renault is the lowest bu…

Those numbers are pretty generous, I would beg to differ on at least some of them. [1][2][3] My mistake when you mentioned ground effect, I thought you meant sealed (skirts and fans). The ground effect you mean is already a thing in present F1 thanks to diffusers. The new rules have just made the diffuser bigger and simplified the front and rear wings. [1] https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/07/todt-admits-2021-budget-.…

The budget cap was revised down after Covid hit (down to $145 million from $175 million), to stop the midfield from going broke, and Ross Brawn says they’re going to lower it further in the coming years [0].

You can’t figure out exactly what teams that’s going to hit, because publicly available finances don’t have enough detail. But it’s either going to bring spending more or less in line with Haas or Racing Point, who are both pretty close in terms of spending anyway. The reason McLaren (a relatively big spending team) are so publicly in favour of it is that they’ve had some pretty serious financial trouble going on recently.

[0]: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-news-f1-...