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Many games are held together by duct tape

polygon.com

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Re: Many games are held together by duct tape

#141

Post by perseusmandate »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #101

As a counterpoint, the Quake -> Quake 2 -> Quake 3 original open source releases are remarkably clean. Quake 2 in particular is very minimalist and the game was developed in something like 10 months. Granted, it's not really fair to compare anyone to the id software team of the time. But the requirements of the Quake series, basically a BSP renderer that is easy to modify and extend, probably forces it to be extensib…

The fast inverse square root algorithm Carmack invented for Quake 3's lighting is the definition of elegant code

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root

Re: Many games are held together by duct tape

#142

Post by xsmasher »

perseusmandate wrote: post #141
CoolGuySteve wrote: post #101

As a counterpoint, the Quake -> Quake 2 -> Quake 3 original open source releases are remarkably clean. Quake 2 in particular is very minimalist and the game was developed in something like 10 months. Granted, it's not really fair to compare anyone to the id software team of the time. But the requirements of the Quake series, basically a BSP renderer that is easy to modify and extend, probably forces it to be extensib…

The fast inverse square root algorithm Carmack invented for Quake 3's lighting is the definition of elegant code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root

It's EFFICIENT, but it's the opposite of elegant. If you looked at the code you would have no idea what it is doing or meant to do.

Elegant code should be simple, readable, and apply some leverage to make a difficult problem more clear.

Re: Many games are held together by duct tape

#143

Post by retsibsi »

leetcrew wrote: post #78
huffmsa wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing the meta is part of the game. If you're not loading in other code or using 3rd party assistance, it's fair. Understanding the buy strategy in CSGO doesn't make you a "cheater", in means you understand how to stretch the game to it's limits. Mike Vrabel taking penalties to burn the clock might seen unfair, but he was just leveraging the rules as written to improve his chances of winning.

> Understanding the buy strategy in CSGO doesn't make you a "cheater", in means you understand how to stretch the game to it's limits. the economy in cs is a core mechanic of the game. I don't know of any buy strategies that are even close to considered "exploits". a better example would be illegal boosts. in the old days, there were many OP positions you could get into by boosting on top of other players (or even th…

All good points, but additionally: sometimes it's good to wait and see where a glitch takes a game, rather than banning it straight away because it 'breaks' the version of the game that everyone has been playing so far.

A classic example is the Quake series, where the movement mechanics that gave the games lasting appeal were all originally accidental. (And Carmack even briefly patched strafe-jumping out of Q3, before quickly reverting -- but only because his fix caused other problems: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/09/02/quake-3-john-car...)

David Sirlin also writes well about this sort of thing (with more of a focus on 'cheap' use of intended mechanics), though his tone could be offputting to people who think hyper-competitive videogaming is a bit silly: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

Re: Many games are held together by duct tape

#144

Post by friendlybus »

seren wrote: post #32
friendlybus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you take pride in rewriting the code? Maybe as an open source adventure with others? Going through the shame of showing it off is more valuable on its own merits than leaving it as is, regardless of the code quality or social outcomes.

I believe that as code "writers", we tend to have a bias that code should well-written. And I don't think it is that important. If you are working in a global company with a distributed workforce, well-written code is mandatory because it is a way to communicate and to maintain the code in the long term. Even more so if this is a critical code that could kill. But if you started as a lone developer for a game hobby p…

The shame is a personal thing. Being in a community of people that value high quality implementations or having high personal standards for work is a good driver for code shame. It's a choice to go through that shame. Code is a neutral medium.

Re: Many games are held together by duct tape

#145

Post by leetcrew »

retsibsi wrote: post #143
leetcrew wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Understanding the buy strategy in CSGO doesn't make you a "cheater", in means you understand how to stretch the game to it's limits. the economy in cs is a core mechanic of the game. I don't know of any buy strategies that are even close to considered "exploits". a better example would be illegal boosts. in the old days, there were many OP positions you could get into by boosting on top of other players (or even th…

All good points, but additionally: sometimes it's good to wait and see where a glitch takes a game, rather than banning it straight away because it 'breaks' the version of the game that everyone has been playing so far. A classic example is the Quake series, where the movement mechanics that gave the games lasting appeal were all originally accidental. (And Carmack even briefly patched strafe-jumping out of Q3, befor…

I totally agree. "skiing" in tribes is another classic example. fun mechanics take priority over everything. after all, it's a game!

as an aside, strafe jumping is pretty similar to bunnyhopping in cs, probably because the source/goldsrc engine had its roots in quake code. I brought it up as a grey area. it's a fun mechanic, but timing is really important on cs maps, and it definitely breaks the balance on some of them. personally I think it was a mistake for valve to patch it out of the vanilla game (leagues, 3rd party servers, and matchmaking could have just disabled it through the svar), but that's all history now.

my main point is that the mere fact that games take place in virtual environments doesn't make whatever the client/server permits the ultimate law of the land. just like in real life, the rules of the game are the intersection of what's possible and what's fun.

Re: Many games are held together by duct tape

#146

Post by dwd »

perseusmandate wrote: post #141
CoolGuySteve wrote: post #101

As a counterpoint, the Quake -> Quake 2 -> Quake 3 original open source releases are remarkably clean. Quake 2 in particular is very minimalist and the game was developed in something like 10 months. Granted, it's not really fair to compare anyone to the id software team of the time. But the requirements of the Quake series, basically a BSP renderer that is easy to modify and extend, probably forces it to be extensib…

The fast inverse square root algorithm Carmack invented for Quake 3's lighting is the definition of elegant code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root

It was a very different time with serious limits on graphics, memory and disk space.

Going back even further some of the early 8bit games were engineering marvels where the only hacks were to squeeze out every last bit of memory.

Re: Many games are held together by duct tape

#147

Post by hopfog »

cpv wrote: post #51
hopfog wrote: post #12

I run a small MMORPG and I'm considering open-sourcing the whole thing but the code is a complete mess. The source code of VVVVVV is a work of art in comparison. What holds me back are 1. I'm ashamed to reveal the monstrosity 2. I'm afraid the code is too messy for anyone to be able to make contributions 3. it will make it much easier for hackers to find exploits. It's a shame because I think the game would be really…

I'm curious: Are you running it as full-time, or a side project? How much time does it take for maintenance in a month? Can you share a link?

Side project but will actually go almost full-time indie developer now in February and continue my regular job as a part-time consultant. Really stoked about it!

It doesn't require much maintenance and I'm running it on the lowest tier Digital Ocean droplet so almost free. In December I didn't touch it at all while having a break between patches.

Here you go: https://canvaslegacy.com/

A player has painted the whole starting mine yellow so it looks like a mess in the newbie area but will address that in next patch. :) Also, mobile version is severely lacking so desktop is highly recommended (actually just wrapped up the new mobile client but haven't released it yet).

Re: Many games are held together by duct tape

#148

Post by cpv »

hopfog wrote: post #147
cpv wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious: Are you running it as full-time, or a side project? How much time does it take for maintenance in a month? Can you share a link?

Side project but will actually go almost full-time indie developer now in February and continue my regular job as a part-time consultant. Really stoked about it! It doesn't require much maintenance and I'm running it on the lowest tier Digital Ocean droplet so almost free. In December I didn't touch it at all while having a break between patches. Here you go: https://canvaslegacy.com/ A player has painted the whole s…

Thanks, will check it out!

Re: Many games are held together by duct tape

#149

Post by somesortofsystm »

mywittyname wrote: post #73
mr-ron wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I legitimately don't understand this metaphor at all

I think it's like, 1) get a product owner to describe requirements (not sure why they are gathering raw mats instead of producing blue prints) 2) He tries to steal code from previous jobs to bring to new jobs, because he pretend that he "owns" them. 3) He can't steal code from previous jobs because he left them in the walls. 4) Javascript is glue.

Javascript: just, no. Never.

.. dunno where you got that Javascript snark from, nor did I even mention 'raw mats', but it seems you got the picture because you immediately added your own invented mess to the scene. Congratulations, you must be a software developer.

Re: Many games are held together by duct tape

#150

Post by somesortofsystm »

jaywalk wrote: post #60
somesortofsystm wrote: post #19

I recently found myself trying to describe modern software techniques to a layman, who is a carpenter. "Its like this - you're hired to build a house. First, you have to go get someone motivated to harvest the raw materials for you - designs, logic, etc. - which will then be turned into the 'raw wood' that holds up the walls and keeps the roof on. Then, when that person is busy getting the materials cut, you start bu…

For the sake of anyone who uses your software, I hope you're better at writing code than coming up with metaphors.

Exactly. That's software development for you. :P
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