Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement • Hacker News Board

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#141

Post by panda88888 » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #135

panda88888 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would give the wealthy even more advantage because they have the time and resources to throw at the test compared to the poor. The test changes every year? No problem, just prep for the meta test like how people prep for the FAANG interviews. Multiple formats? No problem, just spend more time preparing for each format. Changing topics? No problem, just cover as many topics as necessary. I think the key is to see…

If is it just resources how do the poor from certain cultures manage to do well on the standardised tests while other cultures with upper middle class incomes underperform? The problem is a lot more complex than just money.

Agree with you that resources is just one factor and probably not the dominating factor. I am arguing from the point of all things being equal, a test that doesn’t change from year to year requires less time and resources to prep for compared to a test that does change year to year. And for a poor student, the former is probably more equitable than the latter.

As for standardized test scores and ethnicity/culture, that is a sensitive and contentious topic that I prefer not get into.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#142

Post by throwaway87378 » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #84

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " However, I’ve only ever needed a tiny fraction of what I learned there in my jobs at Google and Facebook. " That's interesting. What did you do at those positions? I was at a different FAANG and used the hell out what I learned at university. RF knowledge, embedded systems, creating physics simulations, and a bunch of other stuff. Hell, I wish I'd learned more; some DSP knowledge would be hella handy right about…

I worked in Chrome for a while, but for past few years I worked in security related areas, both at Google and at Facebook. You could make the case that the mathematics I’ve learned helped me understand how RSA and ECC work, but that has actually been mostly irrelevant in my experience, unlike things like system design, vulnerability detection and management, fuzzing, reverse engineering, which I have mostly learned o…

> This is a bit myopic with respect to how normal people view university education. For a typical person, the point of education is not to learn things, but to obtain a degree. The point of degree is to get a good job. If they manage to get a good job, that’s a success, and nothing more is expected from the university education

The point of a university, however, is for people to learn things. The fact that most people today treat universities as trade schools is unfortunate, and IMO is having a negative effect on universities and people (like myself) that went/are going there to actually learn something.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#143

Post by Aperocky » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

privateSFacct wrote: post #123

As someone doing hiring we have begun doing a very basic screening exam - quick writing sample, some basic (EXTREMELY basic) applied work - 1st year college quality is fine. We have folks with degrees who can barely string together the most basic concepts (literally out of the intro to X course) in their field. I'm seriously curious how this is even possible. Yes - some are from degree mill places - but even those ha…

Sounds like fizz buzz.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#144

Post by haihaibye » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

lammalamma25 wrote: post #119

Ignoring the debate about its usefulness, I have a really hard time with the line of thinking that minority/disadvantaged populations do poorly on the test therefore it is discriminatory. Everyone takes the same test. Preparing for it more (prep classes etc) will make you do better. That is true, but what does a non discriminatory measure look like then? Unless it has exactly proportional results then it can be calle…

If groups perform differently on tests vs grades, different groups will lose or gain depending on the relative weightings between the two.

The best thing about having 2 measures that don't agree is you can pick which one you want to be the true source, and which one is terrible and wrong. Then you can write a story that fits your desired narrative.

If disadvantaged minorities did better on tests vs grades, do you have any doubt we wouldn't have a scandal about teacher's highly subjective racist marking?

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#145

Post by Aperocky » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #60

zelly wrote: post #55

How about a SAT test but instead of getting into a college you get a job. Bring back aptitude testing for employment so we don't have to go through this college rigmarole.

I don’t think employers want that. They like 4 year college degrees not only because they demonstrate a modicum of intelligence but also because they demonstrate conformity and conscientiousness, as well as the ability to delay gratification. Employers like conformist workers who will put up with boring work without complaint. A person who does really well in high school and aces their SATs but refuses to go to colle…

These people are in Silicon Valley now mostly. Anecdotally, it doesn’t matter which major they graduated, they all seem to gravitate the same way

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#146

Post by SamReidHughes » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 10:51 PM UTC

iaw wrote: post #71

SamReidHughes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a data driven alternative measure for predicting student success, by all means offer one. The reality is, schools want to discriminate against whites and Asians in favor of dumber middle-class blacks and hispanics. Edit: You have to understand, these people genuinely, religiously believe that a racially diverse student body is somehow better. It's utterly naive to think their motivation is better evaluati…

> discriminate against whites and Asians in favor of dumber middle-class blacks and hispanics I think there's ample evidence to indicate that it's not just intelligence at play but the opportunities available to individual students that makes their relative academic success possible. It's a naive argument that the under-representation of particular classes in higher education is because they're 'dumb'

I didn’t make that argument. The argument is that those attending the institutions are dumber than the Asians and whites they’re replacing (edit: at the margin, obviously), because schools unfairly discriminate in their favor. These aren’t pygmalion geniuses from the ghetto, they’re middle-class kids with cell phones and laptops. Half of black Americans in the Ivy League are from post-civil war immigrant stock. An over-represented minority.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#147

Post by TheFullStack » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 11:51 PM UTC

SamReidHughes wrote: post #146

iaw wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> discriminate against whites and Asians in favor of dumber middle-class blacks and hispanics I think there's ample evidence to indicate that it's not just intelligence at play but the opportunities available to individual students that makes their relative academic success possible. It's a naive argument that the under-representation of particular classes in higher education is because they're 'dumb'

I didn’t make that argument. The argument is that those attending the institutions are dumber than the Asians and whites they’re replacing (edit: at the margin, obviously), because schools unfairly discriminate in their favor. These aren’t pygmalion geniuses from the ghetto, they’re middle-class kids with cell phones and laptops. Half of black Americans in the Ivy League are from post-civil war immigrant stock. An ov…

I am an Asian who was definitely discriminated against during the college admission cycle. It really really sucked. Luckily out here in the "real world", a lot of that discrimination flips and I benefit from being an Asian in tech in many ways. I don't feel the least bit guilty about it either.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#148

Post by ndesaulniers » Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 11:53 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #66

dragonwriter wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ex professor here. Faculty have the power to end this bezzle if we admit students are learning nothing and we'd all be better off with real jobs. I learned quite a lot in most of my classes in college; if your students weren't maybe that's not an indictment of the education system so much as their particular institution & instructors.

I’ve also learned a lot in my degrees, and greatly enjoyed my time in the university. However, I’ve only ever needed a tiny fraction of what I learned there in my jobs at Google and Facebook.

Cause most folks at Google are just moving protobufs, myself included. /s

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#149

Post by geitir » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 1:04 AM UTC

freetime2 wrote: post #75

As someone who dealt with severe depression during high school, I feel like the SATs really helped me out during college admissions time. Just getting out of bed every day was a real struggle for me and as a result my attendance was poor, my grades were spotty, and I didn’t have any formal extra curriculars I could show off. But I did get the highest SAT scores in my class, and I feel like that helped demonstrate tha…

I completely agree with this. Also, I feel like scandals always come out where certain high schools were inflating grades to reach funding goals, etc. It might even come to the point where admissions office take into account the high school you attended to calculate an effective grade which given a lack of standardized tests might very well lead to an even larger admissions gap based on wealth

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#150

Post by 8bitsrule » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 1:35 AM UTC

freetime2 wrote: post #134

Pfhreak wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the opposite -- near perfect test scores and shoddy grades. Ended up having to go to community college because no schools would have me. (It ended up working out for the better, I eventually made my way through an associates and saved a TON of money, got my bachelors, and have been quite successful.)

Community colleges are awesome. My high school let me take a class at a local community college during the summer to make up for an “incomplete” mark I got during the school year. I remember the class being made up of people like me who didn’t have a good run in high school for whatever reason and were trying to get their lives on track. Or people who had moved to the US from other countries with very little and were…

Out of HS I attended a 'flagship' school for 5 years, then returned to my hometown where a CC had been built in the interim. So the differences were obvious.

For -some- futures, doing the first year (or two) in a CC can be a better choice. Getting required electives out of the way, for example, probably at a lower cost. Getting feet wet and all the Frosh experiences out of the way.

OTOH, the competition and expertise attracted by a 'flagship' can be motivating and invaluable, from the get-go ... the opportunities to explore far more numerous ... not to mention the more diverse cultural and relationship environment.