The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#141

Post by spo81rty » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

danmg wrote: post #39

Saying that "none of this is anyone’s fault" and blaming this on new technology is entirely disingenuous. This is 100% GM's fault because they learned nothing after the government bailed them out in 2009. They continued to scrimp on labor and build quality, and that resulted in horrible cars that no one wants. And their response? Scrimp even more on labor. EVs make up a very small slice of the new car market and virt…

EV is a small part of the market today. But it's growing fast. As someone who owns an electric car, my next car will definitely be one and I wouldn't buy anything else.

These union deals last 4 years. So the manufacturers have to think about labor and planning long term.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#142

Post by shadowgovt » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

hanniabu wrote: post #126

cagenut wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you're being clever or just defined socialism by accident.

Why is it that anytime a discussion about massive companies paying workers more comes up, that somehow somebody thinks this is socialism. Employees deserve to be fairly compensated.

Probably because "employees deserve to be fairly compensated" is a concept from communism (not socialism, but Americans get the two confused all the time) as soon as you divorce "fairly" from "what the employer and employee agree to in a free labor market."

That's not a bad thing, but it's how the definitions and philosophies flow.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#143

Post by lawrenceyan » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

chronotis wrote: post #62

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

Bringing this point back closer to home: I've been a "software professional" of one shape or another for over 20 years now. In my case, that's come with a never-ending need to constantly retool: new languages, new SDKs, new device types, new APIs, etc., etc. I'm sure this sounds familiar. There are a LOT of jobs out there that don't have any continuing education requirement, or where the idea of learning some new com…

Computer Science at the end of the day is just applied math. The majority of the algorithms and data structures used today in software engineering were invented more than 50+ years ago.

The language or framework you use really shouldn’t matter all that much. That’s just a matter of taking some time to acquaint yourself with the vernacular. But fundamentally, the maths stays the same.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#144

Post by smilekzs » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #97

bluedino wrote: post #29

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

While I'm ignorant, why can't they just make other parts? If you have a lathe and a machine shop, you can make other pieces of metal instead of the pieces of metal you currently make.

Most probably because the shop invested heavily in specialized machinery and tooling and processes and know-how to optimize production of some niche products with relatively stable demand, until now?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#145

Post by zarkov99 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

hanniabu wrote: post #126

cagenut wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you're being clever or just defined socialism by accident.

Why is it that anytime a discussion about massive companies paying workers more comes up, that somehow somebody thinks this is socialism. Employees deserve to be fairly compensated.

Nobody "deserves" anything. The market is not just for products.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#146

Post by shadowgovt » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

It's hard to do when the people who would be recipients of such help are philosophically opposed to the virtue of such help.

"Learn 2 code" was attempted because offering food stamps and Section 8 housing in coal country gets you immediately shut down. Those people, generally, don't want to perceive themselves as a burden on society.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#147

Post by Mathnerd314 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #60

pkaye wrote: post #13

I was watching this Youtube video of Audi electric motor production. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zttC2x9nMEw Pretty crazy how much of the motor construction can be automated. There is just no way around it. Union or not, a lot of jobs will disappear. If GM and Ford don't do it then one of the hundred electric car companies around the world will progress in that direction.

The tasks the humans are doing seem somewhat arbitrary. e.g. we see both robots and humans inserting and tightening bolts. I wonder why humans are involved in those steps.

Something about ensuring the right pressure / tightness presumably. There are machines that do really sensitive tightening on the market today, but only relatively recently, so the poor human probably has a job only thanks to some ROI analysis that concluded waiting a few years to buy a used machine was more profitable.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#148

Post by shadowgovt » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

whateveracct wrote: post #137

Thriptic wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I have said in a number of these types of threads, saying we will pay people off / implement UBI as a solution to reduced participation in the labor force dramatically underestimates the complexity of the problems of automation / globalization / de-industrialization. Most people want to work; they derive self-esteem from their labor and for being a provider; and status is awarded by society depending on the type o…

> People don't want "hand outs" or "charity", they want to do something to generate value. While I agree that we will ultimately have to pursue some sort of UBI or payoff solution, implementing it requires a complete cultural shift in the way we think about work which will likely be a difficult uphill battle. "Generating value" is such a capitalist fake idea though. With UBI, people could potentially pursue whatever…

By overcompensating people for under-valued work, is how we did it in the Great Depression.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#149

Post by spo81rty » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

Erudite_Genius wrote: post #58

Right now, electric cars are a stupid choice. Half the range, 50x the refuel time, and triple the cost of any gasoline-powered alternative. The day you can buy a $15,000 car that gets 1,000 miles of range that takes 5 minutes to charge at every currently existing gas station will be the day the gasoline-powered car goes extinct.

All cars are a stupid choice compared to a motorcycle, subway or taking a bus...

The average car sold in the USA is about $35,000. You can buy an EV for that and less.

But to your point, there are companies in China making electric cars for like $15,000. One day in the US we will get a sub $20,000 EV.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#150

Post by jdnenej » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #68

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

As I have said in a number of these types of threads, saying we will pay people off / implement UBI as a solution to reduced participation in the labor force dramatically underestimates the complexity of the problems of automation / globalization / de-industrialization. Most people want to work; they derive self-esteem from their labor and for being a provider; and status is awarded by society depending on the type o…

There is unlimited meaningful work available that doesn't generate much real profit. You can easily perform music on the street which others enjoy but you won't make a lot of money. You can easily learn crafts to create things for your friends and family that they will appreciate but not pay for. You can easily get in to competitive sport without having to be part of the very top % who get paid for it.

We just need to realise that life happyness and meaningful work doesn't mean generating profits for some ceo.