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Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

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Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#141

Post by hosh »

T-hawk wrote: post #131
kaikai wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a motorcyclist, and I don’t get how this works for you in real life. If I’m riding down the road and there’s a car stopped at a stop sign or intersection, and we make eye contact, yes I assume they see me. I do not come to a full stop in the middle of the road to let them turn just in case they forget we looked at each other. There’s no way to ride that defensively and not get hit by car drivers behind me, or mak…

Cyclist rather than motorcyclist here, and that's correct. You read the body language of cars. If you pay attention - full attention with your head up on the situation, and not on your music or phone conversation - you can read what cars don't notice you, which ones do and will yield, and which ones do but will aggressively move first. You adjust your speed and path to accommodate for that as best as you can, case by…

I think that personal responsibility goes both ways. I love cycling. I used to drive my daughter to school every day.

Whatever vehicle I am operating (or even if I am walking), I should be paying attention as much as I can. Yes, the stakes are much higher for pedestrians and cyclists. Yes, it is much easier to zone out when driving. Adding in texting while driving, and we get more of those short-term memory effects.

I am reminded of this:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/1...

https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history

In the early days, the automobile makers made a concerted effort to change the culture around "who is responsible". Yes, they standardized the rules of the road to make it safer ... but they also injected into the culture to shift the responsibility to people who are not driving on the road.

In the end, I think for most people, they don't really want to get hurt, or see other people get hurt.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#142

Post by wcarron »

sharadov wrote: post #111
taneq wrote: post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

When I started riding a wise old motorcyclist told me "Ride like you are invisible".

I prefer "Ride like everyone will try to kill you"

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#143

Post by hosh »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #132
T-hawk wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyclist rather than motorcyclist here, and that's correct. You read the body language of cars. If you pay attention - full attention with your head up on the situation, and not on your music or phone conversation - you can read what cars don't notice you, which ones do and will yield, and which ones do but will aggressively move first. You adjust your speed and path to accommodate for that as best as you can, case by…

>If you pay attention - full attention with your head up on the situation, and not on your music or phone conversation - you can read what cars don't notice you, which ones do and will yield, and which ones do but will aggressively move first. You adjust your speed and path to accommodate for that as best as you can, case by case. Cannot agree more. I would go so far as to say the ability to anticipate what another p…

Then to throw a monkey-wrench into the mix: people, such as those on the ASD spectrum, who have difficulty decoding or intuiting body language, adapting to it, and giving out the signals about their intentions.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#144

Post by godelski »

T-hawk wrote: post #131
kaikai wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a motorcyclist, and I don’t get how this works for you in real life. If I’m riding down the road and there’s a car stopped at a stop sign or intersection, and we make eye contact, yes I assume they see me. I do not come to a full stop in the middle of the road to let them turn just in case they forget we looked at each other. There’s no way to ride that defensively and not get hit by car drivers behind me, or mak…

Cyclist rather than motorcyclist here, and that's correct. You read the body language of cars. If you pay attention - full attention with your head up on the situation, and not on your music or phone conversation - you can read what cars don't notice you, which ones do and will yield, and which ones do but will aggressively move first. You adjust your speed and path to accommodate for that as best as you can, case by…

As a cyclist I think you are on point. Like people, cars have body language. It is so telling that I can even tell which cars are at a stop sign in the middle of the night and are waving me through the intersection even though they have the right of way and there's no way I can see into their vehicle (seriously guys, just go if you have the right of way. I don't trust you) as opposed to someone who is just stopped and not paying attention.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#145

Post by loeg »

brudgers wrote: post #99
falcolas wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting to me: As a fellow motorcyclist, I agree with your philosophy wholeheartedly. But most bicyclists (who are arguably at more risk from a car/truck than a motorcyclist) disagree with this just as wholeheartedly. I seriously wonder why this dichotomy exists, especially as bicycles are gaining electric motors capable of propelling them at higher and higher speeds.

Bicyclists suffer political disability under [typical US] traffic laws. Bicyclists are not afforded a full traffic lane when traveling. Bicyclists are prohibited from the highest quality roads. Bicyclists are required to ride on the shoulder. Even the best laid bike lanes don't give cyclists the right of way. Many many bike routes are shared with pedestrians. Motorcyclists on the other hand enjoy first class status u…

> Bicyclists suffer political disability under [typical US] traffic laws.

Yes, but,

> Bicyclists are not afforded a full traffic lane when traveling. Bicyclists are prohibited from the highest quality roads. Bicyclists are required to ride on the shoulder.

This isn't true anywhere I've lived in the US.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#147

Post by NeedMoreTea »

kaikai wrote: post #119
taneq wrote: post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

I’m a motorcyclist, and I don’t get how this works for you in real life. If I’m riding down the road and there’s a car stopped at a stop sign or intersection, and we make eye contact, yes I assume they see me. I do not come to a full stop in the middle of the road to let them turn just in case they forget we looked at each other. There’s no way to ride that defensively and not get hit by car drivers behind me, or mak…

> and we make eye contact, yes I assume they see me.

Oh, that doesn't work reliably enough. Far from uncommon for cars that are stopped at a side junction, have a driver that looks, appears to see and make eye contact, then pulls out anyway...

You do seem to develop some sort of sixth sense for the ones that will. Then you can try to get them to see by over-using your carriageway - swerve to gutter then to centre line, etc, expecting and setting up to swerve behind the pulling out vehicle.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#148

Post by loeg »

taneq wrote: post #16
scarface74 wrote: post #5

My first thought was that the motorcyclist in the picture almost deserves to be hit for driving illegally and dangerously between two cars - ie lane splitting. But from the comments, it does seem to be legal some places. But, in all other states in the US besides CA, it is explicitly illegal. It still seems unsafe even it is legal.

Lane splitting is legal in many jurisdictions, and it's only unsafe if the motorcyclist doesn't observe a few basic safety rules: - If there's a gap ahead in stopped traffic, assume a car will pull across it and adjust your speed and attention accordingly - If it looks like a car will change lanes without indicating, assume they're going to do it - Assume nobody can see you and ride accordingly

As a cyclist I have to basically assume any car door will open at any time. How do you square that with lane splitting? I know it happens; I've seen dash-cam from incidents where a passenger opened their door during slow traffic and took out a motorcyclist lane-splitting.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#149

Post by sharadov »

wcarron wrote: post #142
sharadov wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I started riding a wise old motorcyclist told me "Ride like you are invisible".

I prefer "Ride like everyone will try to kill you"

That might actually dissuade a new rider :-) from ever riding !

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#150

Post by loeg »

falcolas wrote: post #44
taneq wrote: post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

It’s interesting to me: As a fellow motorcyclist, I agree with your philosophy wholeheartedly. But most bicyclists (who are arguably at more risk from a car/truck than a motorcyclist) disagree with this just as wholeheartedly. I seriously wonder why this dichotomy exists, especially as bicycles are gaining electric motors capable of propelling them at higher and higher speeds.

Why do you claim that most bicyclists espouse some extremely specific philosophical viewpoint? Have you surveyed a representative sample of cyclists or something? It's just extremely weird to me to make such a sweeping claim about a large group you don't count yourself in.
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