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Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

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Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#141

Post by luckylion »

_-___________-_ wrote: post #114
luckylion wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Is it though? I mean it's sure helpful if that's what you want to do, but it's not like that was impossible before. Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population) it seems to be a small win, easing the bureaucratic process for a small number…

> Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population) [citation needed] There are vast numbers of cross-border workers and internal (to the EU) migrants. I don't have numbers, but I really think that statement is misleading.

Most (I'm going out on a limb here and would say: the super majority) lives and works in their home country. It's different for tourism where most have traveled to different countries, but it's not like 30% of the population in the EU is living outside the country they were born in.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#142

Post by DVassallo »

dmihal wrote: post #121
DVassallo wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, Bulgaria's GDP per capita is $9,272 and Luxembourg's is $114,340. Yet, there's full freedom of movement between the two countries.

While Bulgaria is part of the EU, it's not part of the Schengen zone, meaning they don't have truly "open borders".

There's full freedom of movement, so it's an open border. The Schengen zone is no border.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#143

Post by chrchang523 »

diminoten wrote: post #127
chrchang523 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore's government is widely acknowledged to have one of the best track records in the world, when it comes to considering and then successfully implementing unpopular policies that nevertheless economically benefit the group. And immigration policy is one area they considered with fresh eyes; even the most radical open borders advocates were permitted to, and did, try to make their case in Singapore. What did th…

I'm confused, are you talking about this, a paper published in 2013 by the government of Singapore? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_White_Paper That research you're talking about (with fresh eyes) concluded they needed more immigrants, not fewer. I just don't understand what point you're trying to make. Singapore's immigration laws are in what way relevant to the US? It's an "island city state" according to…

Singapore treats high-skill and low-skill immigrants quite differently. That's the centerpiece of their policy, and entirely relevant to the West. Compare Canada/Australia/NZ's race-blind (and high-volume, especially relative to their population sizes!) but points-based immigration systems, and much lower severity of populist revolt in those countries, with the problems in the US and European countries that had been executing less selective policies against the wishes of their citizens.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#144

Post by TremendousJudge »

rconti wrote: post #94
nostrademons wrote: post #15

Antarctica too: if you can get there, you can step onto the ice. There's a pattern here: the only places with open borders are places where you wouldn't really want to live anyway, while the places with the strictest border controls are often those that are quite desirable.

Argentina strikes me as a strong combination of "desirable" and "open". Virtually anyone can become a citizen, and it's a prosperous enough country, currency decline notwithstanding.

For people in the US and Europe, South America is more remote than Svalbard

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#145

Post by seanmcdirmid »

elliekelly wrote: post #132
DataGata wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hukou system is fascinating- I literally turned to a Chinese coworker to ask about it. He is dealing with visa issues in the US, and explained if he wanted to go live in the Chinese city of his family, he'd have essentially a new set of "visa" issues there!

Never having heard of the hukou system before (wikipedia[1] for anyone in the same boat) I have a hard time understanding the rationale behind it. The only "benefit" I can see is the government having more control over citizen movement and reduced class mobility. I was surprised that people with rural hukou status who had migrated to urban areas were reluctant to change status. I'm curious how it's perceived by the p…

They aren’t reluctant to change their status, they simply can’t. Hukou upgrades only come with marriage or divine central government intervention. Even if your ancestors moved to that city a few generations ago, it won’t change your (or your descendants) hukou; ie no jus soli.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#146

Post by diminoten »

chrchang523 wrote: post #143
diminoten wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused, are you talking about this, a paper published in 2013 by the government of Singapore? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_White_Paper That research you're talking about (with fresh eyes) concluded they needed more immigrants, not fewer. I just don't understand what point you're trying to make. Singapore's immigration laws are in what way relevant to the US? It's an "island city state" according to…

Singapore treats high-skill and low-skill immigrants quite differently. That's the centerpiece of their policy, and entirely relevant to the West. Compare Canada/Australia/NZ's race-blind (and high-volume, especially relative to their population sizes!) but points-based immigration systems, and much lower severity of populist revolt in those countries, with the problems in the US and European countries that had been…

Against the wishes of their citizens? Since when?

Also, how is any of that relevant to a country that has so much more space and resources for people? The US is geographically and economically gigantic compared to Singapore, proportionally we can take on orders of magnitude more people than Singapore, so why would we try to apply the same policy?

At 35 people per km^2 vs 8,100 per km^2, how on Earth could you possibly try to compare?

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#147

Post by scottlocklin »

jiveturkey wrote: post #5

> Svalbard’s geopolitics provide an imperfect but alternative vision of how places can be governed, whom they can accommodate, and how communities can form. Hardly. It's a rugged community of 2300 people. That's not a model for alternative government. > "This is not a cradle to grave society,” one of Askholt’s colleagues told me.

>>> Svalbard’s geopolitics provide an imperfect but alternative vision of how places can be governed, whom they can accommodate, and how communities can form.

Yeah, how you can govern an "open border" society made up of rich, educated people with abundant resources who intend to go back to their home country after a little while. You wouldn't need borders if it was as hard to get to NYC as it is to Svalbard.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#148

Post by maxehnert »

dheera wrote: post #61
nostrademons wrote: post #15

Antarctica too: if you can get there, you can step onto the ice. There's a pattern here: the only places with open borders are places where you wouldn't really want to live anyway, while the places with the strictest border controls are often those that are quite desirable.

Svalbard is an amazing, humbling place in terms of nature. The fact that once you leave town, for hundreds of kilometers in any direction there are zero humans, zero cellular reception, just nothing but you, the ice, and maybe the bears. I went there one winter and spent a week without sunlight. It was the first time in my life I went a few days without seeing the sun. A few photos: https://www.facebook.com/dheera/me…

I was looking over pictures of this place last night actually. There's a national park there too which looks other worldly.

Then of course I looked at flights and it's about 40hrs of travel and $1300 so probably not making that trip in this lifetime.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#149

Post by coldtea »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #102
snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

Or compare Los Angeles to Beverly Hills. These two cities share a border. Median incomes are way, way higher in Beverly Hills. And LA's poor millions are free to crowd right into to Beverly Hills and just start grabbing up some of that wealth. But it barely happens at all. The two populations are not merging nearly as much as the shared border would predict.

>And LA's poor millions are free to crowd right into to Beverly Hills and just start grabbing up some of that wealth.

Yeah, not really free. They can't pay rent in Beverly Hills, they can't afford to shop at Beverly Hills shops, they can't even be walking around looking poor without harassment (especially if also black/latino), they don't have access to closed communities, and so on...

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#150

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

ArnoVW wrote: post #134
gambiting wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which was dumb then and still is - UK was never part of the Schengen agreement and has full control of its borders, it can stop anyone from entering as it pleases.

Schengen is about being able to check at your borders. Indeed the UK can still do that, despite being in Europe. However, the UK still has to allow free movement of people. Meaning that it can not stop Europeans from living in the UK. This does not cover working though, and I believe that some European nationalities still have to apply for a work permit. See http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/147/free-…

You get it backwards, free movement of people is for workers, you don't have the right to stay if you aren't working (or alternatively studying, or living with someone who works) — though this isn't heavily enforced
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