Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language • Hacker News Board

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#141

Post by robocat » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:57 PM UTC

overcast wrote: post #126

f00zz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just bear in mind that there's a huge difference between being able to get the gist of something spoken in a foreign language and being able to convey your thoughts effectively in that language. Even after man-years of study I still sound like an idiot when trying to speak English in conference calls, even though I can understand nearly 100% of written and spoken English.

Unless English is an easier language to understanding all broken up, nearly 100% of the time I can figure out what someone who claims to be "bad" at it is saying. English speakers, particularly in the US seem to be pretty tolerant of it. While other countries seem to be dismissive of anyone attempting their language, as if they can't POSSIBLY understand a single word you're saying. tldr: I'm sure you sound fine, and…

English speakers have contact or familiarity with a huge variety of foreign speakers, enough that we can categorise French accents, Swedish accents, Hindi accents etc etc. And we simply get heaps of practice with non-native English speakers. I don't think the same thing occurs so strongly in other languages.

English has a massive variety of vowel sounds within its different accents, as well as other variations in length, emphasis, consonants etc. Native English speakers have a subtle ear for a massive range of vowel sounds (and plenty of people can reproduce them when speaking in an accent). A Spanish person can be confused if you substitute or mispronounce a single vowel in my experience.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#142

Post by jbaudanza » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #120

zzzcpan wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I was watching tv shows with english subtitles and was looking up every word I didn't understand in a dictionary for an hour or more every day. Some days much more, if the show was interesting to me, so it was kind of motivating. At the beginning pausing video and switching between media player and dictionary proved to be a bit too exhausting, so I also wrote a tiny program that did that with a single hotkey be…

> At the beginning pausing video and switching between media player and dictionary proved to be a bit too exhausting, so I also wrote a tiny program that did that with a single hotkey before I really started doing all this. That sounds like a great idea for a service to help learn languages: subtitled videos with links from each word (or idiomatic phrase) in the subtitles to dictionary definitions.

My website, www.captionpop.com, does this with YouTube videos. It allows you to watch videos with multiple subtitles at once, look up individual words, and built interactive flash cards out of video snippets.

There are also Chrome extensions that do similar things for Netflix. For example, Subadub.

Next to interacting with native speakers, I think consuming a ton of media is the best way to learn a language.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#143

Post by robocat » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:07 PM UTC

hwj wrote: post #3

At least for Christians a good way to learn a foreign language is to read the Bible in that language, because (1) they are probably used to read a chapter or two on a daily basis (thus, the routine is already there), (2) and they probably remember some passages in their native tongue (thus, already having a translation of the text). This helped me. YMMV.

As a native speaker, it drives me mad when people try to learn English by reading. They end up training themselves with whacky mispronunciations because they sound out words to themselves, and they can't fix thier pronunciation later because it has becomed so ingrained - especially basic words like "the", "she" etc. I personally have the same issue saying "me" in Spanish, which I still say incorrectly, even though I've been told most of my Spanish sounds good (especially compared against most native English speakers).

Edit: although given how useful it is to read/write English, and how we often find it easier to motivate ourselves by reading, I understand it.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#144

Post by kd5bjo » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

doubleunplussed wrote: post #129

zzzcpan wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really how we learn new things. We see, hear, experience them in context many times, not force ourselves to recall them. Forced repetition is one of the worst most inefficient approaches to language learning.

I've found spaced repetition a great way to increase the size of my vocabulary whilst learning a language. You're right that it's unnatural, but a large unnaturally-learned vocabulary can then be polished by practice in more natural contents, and I feel like the net result is more efficient than using the natural contexts alone. This is especially true since I do not have easy access to native speakers for half an ho…

One thing that’s helped a lot with my listening comprehension is following along in a printed book with an audiobook reader. Especially when it’s a translation of a story I already know, I can usually more or less follow the plot and let the language information seep into my unconscious.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#145

Post by zzzcpan » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

d0mine wrote: post #140

zzzcpan wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I was watching tv shows with english subtitles and was looking up every word I didn't understand in a dictionary for an hour or more every day. Some days much more, if the show was interesting to me, so it was kind of motivating. At the beginning pausing video and switching between media player and dictionary proved to be a bit too exhausting, so I also wrote a tiny program that did that with a single hotkey be…

Is it "comprehensible input" method? https://youtu.be/NiTsduRreug

I guess it is. Interesting that people knew about in the eighties already, but time wasting teaching methods are still dominant.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#146

Post by demosito666 » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

This is a usual bunch of crap thrown together to make another clickbait list for your new tab recommendations feed. In reality, there are numerous ways and tips to improve your language learning process, but there is no single magic one. Some of them will work for you, some will not but you have to figure that out yourself by trial and error. And this process by itself will likely bring a huge benefit.

I strongly recommend watching the video "Ten things polyglots do differently" [1] to get the elaboration of the above. Basically it boils down to this: successful language learners use quite a few methods and techniques. But each learner uses different ones. The main thing they all have in common is that they are actively engaging in the process, not just following some guides and doing tasks from a textbook. A language is not something you can be taught, it's something you need to take yourself. Everything else is far less significant.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROh_-RG3OVg

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#147

Post by yorwba » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

wahnfrieden wrote: post #107

adrianN wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Anki with Yomichan to study Japanese and find it very effective.

I built an iOS app for studying Japanese called Manabi Reader. It collects interesting short-form reading materials, has one-tap dictionary lookups, and lets you add words to flashcards. I'm currently working on extending it with word tracking functionality, so that you can see which words in an article are new to you, can track your progress through kanji by reading, etc. https://reader.manabi.io

How do you solve the problem that almost all interesting material is copyrighted? I use texts from https://www.aozora.gr.jp/ but most of those are somewhat old-fashioned, except for a few modern Japanese translations of foreign public-domain literature.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#148

Post by ummonk » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 8:11 PM UTC

zzzcpan wrote: post #117

abdusco wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on your "very different methodology"?

Sure. I was watching tv shows with english subtitles and was looking up every word I didn't understand in a dictionary for an hour or more every day. Some days much more, if the show was interesting to me, so it was kind of motivating. At the beginning pausing video and switching between media player and dictionary proved to be a bit too exhausting, so I also wrote a tiny program that did that with a single hotkey be…

Well English has very limited inflections so most of the work in learning English goes into vocabulary, pronunciation and idioms. Thus, just experiencing it and looking up words when you need to is a really easy way to learn the language. Not so with highly inflected languages.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#149

Post by hsitz » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 8:14 PM UTC

timerol wrote: post #17

raverbashing wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace the Bible with any simple book you know by heart I would actually advise against religious texts as their language is usually more archaic and less common on the day to day

I did this with the first Harry Potter to help me learn German, back when I was re-reading all of the Harry Potter books as each new one came out.

Yes, Harry Potter is especially good because although it's written for younger readers (i.e, not difficult reading) it's well written and enjoyable for all ages. Also, you can find audio for the book as well as text in both languages. Listening to foreign language audio while following along in foreign language text is excellent method.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#150

Post by yodsanklai » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 8:39 PM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #66

dlkf wrote: post #54

> Evening learning probably isn’t ideal for teenagers either. In a study published in 2012, Johannes Holz at the University of Freiberg, and colleagues, found that 16- and 17-year-old girls performed better on tests of factual memory if they’d learned the material at 3pm than at 9pm. > However, another study, published in Psychological Science in 2016, suggests that evening learning can be beneficial – especially if…

Also why bother with microoptimizations? Just sound like easy ways to justify excuses — “Welp my 3pm window passed, maybe tomorrow!” The best method is the one you actually do.

> The best method is the one you actually do.

Totally agree. I've been trying to learn new languages after getting inspired by youtube polyglots (1 year of Spanish, 1 1/2 years of Thai). I basically do at least 10 minutes a day, no exception. I don't have a fixed method, it varies overtime. Grammar, flashcards, listening, writing, talking with native speakers, translating things, playing with apps and so on. I think it doesn't really matter. That being said, I don't put too much pressure on myself. I just find it rewarding to learn something new, and the process of learning is actually enjoyable. I noticed that focusing on something helps to clear one's mind after a day of work.