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Microsoft's Linux Kernel

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Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#141

Post by fortran77 »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #19
mullingitover wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is still with Linux running in a VM though, right? I'd like a lightweight VM for legacy Windows and Linux running on metal. Given Microsoft's zeal for legacy support I'd say there's a snowball's chance in hell for this, but a man can dream.

I dont think its a VM like Docker no. WSL processes show up under the task manager. This is more like Wine but Line... In a sense. But a little trickier.

Do Docker people really think it’s a VM? Or has the meaning of “VM” shifted this past year?

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#142

Post by mycall »

meruru wrote: post #139

Who cares about the year of the Linux desktop when the world is still turning into 1984? There was a reason we wanted Linux to dominate and it wasn't so it would end like this.

Linux desktop means little when people log into Google, Facebook et al.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#143

Post by mamcx »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #129
mamcx wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have think the same but maybe TODAY is not as hard as before: 1- We have 4/5 mainstream OSes today: Win/OSX/iOS/Android + Linux. In the case of iOS/android: Some users alread switch between the 2. 2- If it have apps is almost all people need. Drivers are not THAT significant IMHO. 3- Chromebook is a thing, despite it sound stupid: A OS that is just a browser. Web is the 6 truly mainstream "OS". 4- What people need…

> What people need on drivers? USB (and with usb-c), hdmi, bluetooth (maybe?) Do you honestly think there is a single USB-C driver that covers literally everything that can connect over USB? And anything with an HDMI port uses the same driver!?

No, but I suspect the array of devices is more narrow than suspected?

I think that nail the software (app + dev experience) is a bigger challenge and priority than worry about the (external) hardware.

P.D: One thin I forget to articulate is the possibility to leverage linux as a bridge for drivers (possible)? so the new OS ship a smallish linux just for get compatibility.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#144

Post by meruru »

briffle wrote: post #102
rolph wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

problem is the kernel is sitting on top of a binary blob, and that manipulates the access to the real machine. we shouldnt be so worried about the kernel, we should be concerned about what the binary between the kernel and the hardware is doing/notdoing , and what degree of control do we have over that layer.

The same problem exists in VMware, or really any cloud provider...

A cloud provider and your personal machine are different things with different considerations. The advantage of using Linux on a cloud provider is primarily to prevent vendor lock-in and be able to move to a different provider or a physical server under your control as needed.

Using Linux on a personal machine is primarily so you can trust your machine to serve you and no one else. This is defeated if Windows or backdoored firmware is running below Linux.

Note that the no lock-in benefit also exists on the desktop and because of that it makes sense to switch to Linux on a machine that requires proprietary firmware as an intermediate step to moving to a better machine like those from https://puri.sm/

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#145

Post by meruru »

mycall wrote: post #142
meruru wrote: post #139

Who cares about the year of the Linux desktop when the world is still turning into 1984? There was a reason we wanted Linux to dominate and it wasn't so it would end like this.

Linux desktop means little when people log into Google, Facebook et al.

Exactly. Linux won on technical merits, but we failed to educate people about the really important part about freedom.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#146

Post by cududa »

hermitdev wrote: post #86
filmgirlcw wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I work at Microsoft but not on Windows (and my work machine is a MacBook Pro FWIW) WSL 2 is a lot like that -- it's a VM in the sense that it uses Hyper-V, but it's super lightweight. And in fact, when WSL 2 is enabled, both Windows AND Linux are running in the same type of VM (separate, obviously), so it's near-native performance in a lot of ways. There are still some I/O issues that the team is actively…

I'm nervous about WSL 2. I use WSL at home quite a bit and I'm on the Fast Insider ring. My PC hasnt been able to boot Win10 for over a year with virtualization support enabled in my BIOS. No errors or anything, just hangs at boot. Ive left feedback in the hub, but crickets. Don't know what the problem is. It used to work, but at some point an update broke it. Not bleeding edge hardware, either. About a 4 to 5 year o…

Why is op getting downvoted? This is a legitimate issue he’s facing on a specific hardware configuration

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#147

Post by jeremyjh »

StudentStuff wrote: post #134
Osiris wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that drivers are Linux's biggest problem, isn't there benefit to leveraging Windows drivers and then running Linux on top of that virtualized hardware? I don't see why you couldn't run x11 in the window manager with the new Linux kernel in Windows.

Windows has less hardware support than Linux. Most single board computers can run mainline Linux, whereas just a handful support Windows IoT. AMD, ARM (CPUs & Mali GPUs), Intel, VIA, Qualcomm (Adreno) all have support in kernel 5, whereas Microsoft is still stuck subsetting a small group of ARM GPUs and branding Windows 10's OpenGL ES support as DirectX 11. This is a repeat of the troubles Microsoft had with supporti…

There are things that don't work well though, classic example are laptops that dynamically switch between discrete and integrated graphics. You'll probably run everything on the dedicated GPU which hurts battery life.

Still, my old desktop scanner that the manufacturer stopped publishing drives for during the Windows Vista era? Yeah Linux runs it like a boss. No looking up drivers or config parameters on the internet, it just works.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#149

Post by kevingadd »

chrismorgan wrote: post #103
SteveNuts wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WSL version 2 uses the Hyper-V Virtualization API but is not a VM. The first version of WSL is just another process in task manager, with all the syscalls and filesystems emulated.

Well, each WSL1 process is a Windows process. If you’re running vim in bash, for example, you’ll see “vim” and “bash” as separate processes in Task Manager. WSL is all about ELF binaries natively, just as Win32 runs PE executables natively.

"windows process" is misleading, WSL uses a separate "linux subsystem" with its own syscalls, process/thread data structures, etc. It also uses its own file system (albeit with all the state stored in NTFS and affected by filter drivers, which is why its I/O is slow)
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