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Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

economist.com

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Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#141

Post by dfawcus »

samcday wrote: post #127
dfawcus wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such actions are covered by the UK definition of terrorism: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1

Out of interest, are you a lawyer? I'm really struggling to see how you can interpret the language of the page you linked to include non-violent activism. Could you tell me specifically which sections of that legislation you think apply here?

1a -> 2d : creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public

1b : the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation

1c: the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause

So XR is an ideological and/or political cause, intended to influence Governments, and this threat to fly drones over airports in and of itself risks the public. Assume a failure and/or crash of the drone, and all the bad "accidental" things which could arise.

One could certainly argue that the statute is "wrong", and that this sort of action should be treated as some other criminal offence. However I believe it is capable of being argued as terrorism under that definition.

Hence anyone so charged could be subject to pre-trial detention of up to 28 days, and then may have to convince a jury that they should engage in Nullification.

Part of the complaints about that Act when passed was specifically that it covered stuff which did not involve violence (2b - 2e). Note that the criteria in Section 1 (2) are logically OR'ed - only one of 2a through 2e has to be satisfied.

If you believe you may need advice from a Lawyer, I suggest you consult one.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#142

Post by threw902309 »

samcday wrote: post #109

The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. I agree that XR are definitely pushing the envelope on what we consider to be reasonable activism and protest. However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. Yes, there are plenty of actions being taken to combat the damage we're inflicting to this little wet rock we all call…

[flagged]

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#143

Post by pbhjpbhj »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #95
Lendal wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree. It makes no sense. If you're an activist, and you live in a democracy, why wouldn't you affect change more meaningfully by participating in the democracy you live in? Why would you buy something that itself has a carbon footprint (manufacturing, distribution) and that will only serve to politically damage the cause you purport to care about? What do you want people to do, fly only battery-powered pas…

> Why would you buy something that itself has a carbon footprint (manufacturing, distribution) This is a silly argument. It's impossible to live in the modern world without generating carbon. No one sane says we should stop entirely. People just want to reduce the impact to manageable levels. A single toy drone obviously has a tiny carbon footprint.

Agreed.

It would probably be fine to cause up to (maybe more?) than current global CO2 emissions if it then caused a global reduction over the next decade.

Their objection is like objecting to cutting fire-breaks to save a forest.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#144

Post by NeedMoreTea »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #125
samcday wrote: post #109

The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. I agree that XR are definitely pushing the envelope on what we consider to be reasonable activism and protest. However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. Yes, there are plenty of actions being taken to combat the damage we're inflicting to this little wet rock we all call…

> Maybe some of those extraordinary ways cross the line. But who decides what the line is anyway? Probably the people you inconvenience. A bunch of vegans disrupted traffic in Melbourne, Australia recently. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-08/melbourne-vegan-prote... I don't think they made many friends. It's really hard getting someone to change their mind or their thinking about an issue. But I firmly believe ac…

The interesting thing to me is since the long Easter weekend of XR protests in the UK, opinion polls have shown them rising in popularity and environment polling higher too.

XR are not interested in making friends, but causing enough disruption to get government to treat the issue seriously, in the manner of civil rights and universal suffrage actions. They've certainly increased awareness and discussion. That they actually seem to be making friends by doing so would seem a surprise bonus.

Not only that, the signs are it's working, as change (insignificant tokenism, but nonetheless a step) has already achieved. Between XR and the school strikes parliament has actually declared a climate emergency, and even prospective Tory leadership candidates have declared positions on zero emissions. I don't expect the Tory party to actually do much, but it's a hook on which further legislation will be hung as XR and others are aiming to make it impossible to ignore.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#145

Post by tomjen3 »

samcday wrote: post #130
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe some of those extraordinary ways cross the line. But who decides what the line is anyway? Probably the people you inconvenience. A bunch of vegans disrupted traffic in Melbourne, Australia recently. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-08/melbourne-vegan-prote... I don't think they made many friends. It's really hard getting someone to change their mind or their thinking about an issue. But I firmly believe ac…

> I don't think they made many friends. I don't think they're interested in making friends. They're interested in trying to persuade more people to stop eating the flesh of sentient creatures when our diets don't even require it. > It's really hard getting someone to change their mind or their thinking about an issue. I agree. > But I firmly believe actively making enemies is probably not the way to go about things.…

Then they are going about it the wrong way. It is know at this point that the way to change people is to befriend them, listen to them and make sure that they see you as human, despite the differences.

It worked on the Klan, it worked on the babist church. Of course it is not satisfying and you get no virtue points.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#146

Post by tomjen3 »

samcday wrote: post #89
Lendal wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree. It makes no sense. If you're an activist, and you live in a democracy, why wouldn't you affect change more meaningfully by participating in the democracy you live in? Why would you buy something that itself has a carbon footprint (manufacturing, distribution) and that will only serve to politically damage the cause you purport to care about? What do you want people to do, fly only battery-powered pas…

> If you're an activist, and you live in a democracy, why wouldn't you affect change more meaningfully by participating in the democracy you live in? You seem to be suggesting that there's a "right" way to participate in democracy. Instead of passing down armchair judgements about which forms are the wrong way to participate, could you perhaps suggest what you think would be a better alternative to what XR has planne…

I have learned more about how to live a low(er) climate impact by bloggers on youtube than any of these people have.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#147

Post by pbhjpbhj »

nrb wrote: post #80
macinjosh wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? According to your link aviation emits twice as much CO2 than long distance road travel. Clearly limiting long distance travel would have an impact. Doubly so if aviation was reduced. Yet many global elites (Obama, Macron, et. al) agree to impose heavy restrictions on vehicle emissions used to feed, transport, and employ the average citizens of their countries. Meanwhile those who can afford it take…

Absolutely not... who gets to decide what reason is good enough to fly? How about instead of reducing freedom we stop externalizing these costs, no matter their purpose or industry?

The flipside to that is why should wealth be the determining factor?

Suppose I'm poor but need to travel to another city to get medical treatment to save my life -- but a global carbon-tax prevents me. In contrast someone who happens to have been born to a rich family in a rich country goes around the World because they're bored.

Sure, that's a purposefully extreme example, but it's necessarily so.

Is that situation morally superior to you? Is it fair, desirable?

If we were organising things on a global scale we might give every person carbon credits. But that would be a massive redistribution of wealth.

What strikes me is we're going to need to normalise around a lower consumption lifestyle or vastly reduce the population.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#148

Post by pas »

dfawcus wrote: post #141
samcday wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of interest, are you a lawyer? I'm really struggling to see how you can interpret the language of the page you linked to include non-violent activism. Could you tell me specifically which sections of that legislation you think apply here?

1a -> 2d : creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public 1b : the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation 1c: the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause So XR is an ideological and/or political cause, intended to influence Governments, and this threat to…

Did they create a serious risk?

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#149

Post by jeandejean »

dagss wrote: post #136
Veen wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire aviation industry accounts for about 2.5% of carbon emissions. If we banned air travel entirely it would do approximately nothing to reduce climate change. The single best thing people can do for the environment is refrain from reproducing, but that's not quite such an emotionally appealing thing to protest about.

That is exactly like saying that I only account for a billionth of the earths cO2 emissions, so there is no reason for me to cut emissions in any way. The vast majority of the worlds population has never set foot in an airplane. You have to calculate per capita. 2.5% is HUGE when divided by the number of people that make use of airplanes.

No that's not the same, because air travel is a different industry than agriculture for instance. And it would be a lot more efficient for mitigating carbon emissions that everybody on earth reduce their meat consumption, rather than banning air travel, that would definitely have little impact overall, and impair a lot our ability to meet, explore, make business. Just take the very scientific that do research on climate change: they do take planes to meet... And that's probably very important they continue so.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#150

Post by Fnoord »

dev_dull wrote: post #74
freebear wrote: post #47

Air travel is such a non issue, for any person flying it will of course be a large part of their carbon footprint, but the atmosphere does not care where the CO2 came from. https://insideclimatenews.org/sites/default/files/styles/icn...

This is largely my problem with climate activism. It seems largely based on what's fashionable. For example, ban straws in SF even though all of the ones in the ocean come from another continent[1]. Also stop offering glasses of water because there's a drought (strangely enough the drought ended but of course the laws stick around)[2]. Now a new deal which, even if 100% effective, would only reduce global CO2 emissio…

Banning glasses of water is silly, given that beer, meat, bread, and soda all use more water than they give back.
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