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They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

nytimes.com

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Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#141

Post by xenadu02 »

erentz wrote: post #41
sheeshkebab wrote: post #26

Do these bootcamps ever give programming aptitude tests to people before accepting them into programs? Or is it all about money grab from grants for “learn to code” (which it sounds like it is based on this article)

A lot of them do. This one seems like an outright scam, but for example well known boot camps like Lamba School put you through some tutorials and tests before hand. When you look at these tutorials it really seems to be a filter for “can you teach yourself coding”. IMO making the bootcamps fairly useless given the huge amount of online courseware and free tutorials available now.

It’s no different than hiring a personal trainer. Sure everyone can go to the gym but having a set schedule, paying money, and being accountable to someone is a life hack that uses human social nature to one’s advantage.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#142

Post by hhjinks »

gingabriska wrote: post #58
RhodesianHunter wrote: post #5

I know I'll catch flak for this, but where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity, without delving into the capability side. What makes anyone think that they can take a bunch of people who never or barely passed highschool and have been working in a mine for a decade+ and teach them this? By all means subsidize a laptop and point them at some great onli…

I've no idea why coding should be anymore special than basic reading/writing skills. Code is a way to express solution to the problem which a computer can execute. If you can learn any language, you can learn coding too. Sure, not everyone can understand intricacies of the algorithm design and data structure gotchas but some of that can come as experience and curiousity. Question worth asking is that, does everyone n…

Coding is like math. You have a problem, and need to reach the solution. Often there are specific and concrete steps you need to take to reach the solution.

Despite this, a lot of people just don't get math. Being able to go from an abstract problem to a concrete solution isn't just "write code until it works".

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#143

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

esoterica wrote: post #84
RhodesianHunter wrote: post #5

I know I'll catch flak for this, but where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity, without delving into the capability side. What makes anyone think that they can take a bunch of people who never or barely passed highschool and have been working in a mine for a decade+ and teach them this? By all means subsidize a laptop and point them at some great onli…

So you think you can code because you're a natural born genius with a special intelligence that other plebs don't have, and they will never catch up to you no matter how hard they try because their brains just ain't made right? That's not self serving and egotistic at all.

I think I got a more wide interpretation to the GPs comment.

It's certainly true that many people simply don't have the gumption for insert-any-particular-activity-here. For whatever reason. People try all sorts of activities only to realise they'd prefer doing other things.

I'm fascinated by reading HN and the linked articles. I often read things I don't understand, but over time via resources available online, I've managed to maintain an evolving understanding of software development and the requisite technology.

To put all of this knowledge in to the actual practice of writing software, would not only take many many hours > months > years to achieve basic competency, I'm genuinely not interested in doing that as a job, and think if I did force myself to learn programming I'd never make a particularly good one.

Presumably there is room for mediocre developers, there definitely seems to be room for below-average-skilled people in every industry.

I do agree that the last line probably takes it a bit too far. A not insignificant portion of people who could become okay a software development could do with a lot more help than laptop + search engine.

Maybe a great schooling experience, accessible to all ages, to learn software development would go a long way. If it was a required subject at school I suspect there would be some people would do very poorly in that class, even if they had an amazing teacher.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#144

Post by [deleted] »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

[deleted]

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#145

Post by [deleted] »

commandlinefan wrote: post #24
snazz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen many super-talented self-taught programmers who never received any formal education, and I’ve seen college graduates who can’t get FizzBuzz working. Of course the code camps are scams, but a degree isn’t much better for many people who have very little internal motivation to learn.

Ok. Yes, you’re right. There are proficient programmers who never went to college and complete idiots who did go. However. Most decent programmers do have a four-year degree, mostly in computer science (or something similar like math or physics) and most people who couldn’t hack it in college also can’t hack it solving coding problems 8-10 hours a day, all day, for decades. Stop acting like college degree _means_ mor…

[deleted]

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#146

Post by pmiller2 »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

I don’t see how any of those things you listed are “wrong” reasons to go into software development. All of them are true or roughly true, so, if that’s important to someone, then great. Believe me, given a choice between software development and service work or factory work, I would always choose development for the “easy life,” too.

OTOH, you’re right about boot camp grads not being ready to operate independently, but that’s your employer’s fault for hiring too many of them. You’re totally free to leave and go somewhere that doesn’t hire boot camp grads if you don’t like it.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#147

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #135
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be reasonable to assume people's innate problem solving skills, to the extent they are innate, combined with how their problem solving skills have been guided pedagogically, fit a bell curve? Is it reasonable to assume some people will land on the far lefthand side of certain bell-curve-fitting measurables, or unmeasurables, that lends them to being not particularly well suited for certain kinds of activitie…

I don't know whether it forms a particular curve or what kind. But the fact is only a small proportion of the population has the innate talent for software development. As long as people can practically attract a mate while lacking this sort of abstract reasoning ability, the majority of the population won't have it.

That's an interesting perspective: there's no genetic selection pressure for software development.

I've read that people tend to be intimately attracted to people of roughly the same intelligence and socioeconomic background, for whatever definition of intelligence was used.

Having said that, some people do turn out to become engineers fabricators artists and build amazing things. You're probably right though, the majority of the population probably don't have it.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#148

Post by pmiller2 »

scj wrote: post #78
fma wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a lesser extent, the same can be said for those who get an "IT" degree from a no name school from the college of business. I've spent a lot of my time training people who graduate from local small colleges instead of say, Georgia Tech or UGA (I'm in Atlanta) because management at my big corp is throwing cheap bodies at the solution. Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed mentoring but done kids graduate with no clue and…

If you don't mind me asking, what is the ratio of mentors : grads where you work? What do you think is an acceptable ratio?

Depends how much mentoring is expected and what the productivity expectations for the mentors is, IMO.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#149

Post by hhjinks »

vsskanth wrote: post #46
erentz wrote: post #20

The “anyone can code” and “just learn to code” phenomena needs to die in a fire. This reminds me of many other scams in our education system, it’s disgusting how much money is being leeched out of people on private “schools”. This “anyone can code” idea is actually an easy thing to test if we were serious and honest about it. But we are not. And I believe boot camps give a false sense that more people are successful…

As a counter-point, I would like to point out India's IT industry. When the IT outsourcing industry was booming and there was a serious programmer shortage, outsourcing firms such as Infosys, Cognizant, Tata would hire college graduates en-masse regardless of major (like, entire batch of 20XX would get a job offer). They would then spend 6 months actually training them and weeding out poor performers. The ones who ge…

That's not a counterpoint. That essentially corroborates their statement. As you say, they weeded out the poor performers, and still the worst coders I've ever met have all been from Indian outsourcing agencies. Granted, I've met great coders from the same agencies, too, but the fact remains that even when you weed out the worst offenders, you still get people who should never be anywhere near production code.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#150

Post by pmiller2 »

mathattack wrote: post #125
mothsonasloth wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the main reasons were: * The local management are non-technical and have a rudimentary equation that 1 developer = 1 productivity unit * The bootcamp has some really great salespeople * Hiring is generally difficult for great dev talent, so their logic is just to hire anyone for the numbers, otherwise their budget gets constrained by kafkaesque finance practice from the companies HQ. * Local political and P…

On point 1, perhaps it’s time to whip out the Mythical Man Month?

Probably not going to do any good, based on the rest of the description of the situation.
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