Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#141

Post by ohyes » Mon, Nov 22, 2010, 4:30 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #66

jdietrich wrote: post #55

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

Relative to the Military or Social Security budgets, the cost would barely even register on the balance sheet. WTF? We already spent more on education than the military ($859B > $731B, circa 2008, 2009 numbers not available yet). If we tripled spending, education would be bigger than SS, military, medicare and medicaid combined . Unless you are Paul Krugman, I think that level of spending would register on the balanc…

WTF? You are extremely recklessly wrong and should be ashamed of it...

We actually spend about 70 billion on education. If you look at this department of education's website, you can find a .pdf or excel sheet of the actual budget. It is here:

http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/history/index.html

If you look at the department of defense's website here: http://comptroller.defense.gov/budget.html

You will notice that its budget is around 700 billion. (Meaning we could multiply the DoE's budget by 10 and be about equal). That is just DoD, and does not include departments like homeland security or the FBI.

I will probably get down-voted for this comment, but seriously, check your fucking sources, check their biases, and go to any primary sources available. Don't just click the first link out of Google machine.

This is a clear failing of the education system, as you should have been taught this before exiting high school!

Government expenditures are quite obviously freely available...

There is no need to go to a '.com' website for them. If you actually see who is behind the site: 'http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/.

The proprietor of your cited source (Christopher Chantrill), has a notable political bias.

http://www.christopherchantrill.com/

Going by your research ability, I'd say you aren't the best and aren't that bright.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#142

Post by panthera » Mon, Nov 22, 2010, 5:02 AM UTC

WalterBright is right.

How about eliminating taxpayer funding for schools altogether? We spend $68B on the DoE.

That is ~$900 per child in the US, according to http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp.

Then, entrepreneurs will be motivated to build schools because they can earn a profit based on enrollment. As with all private enterprises, they will be forced to compete on quality of service.

These schools will also be judged on the performance and caliber of their eventual alumni classes.

I am willing to wager that at least 30% of this board went to a private college. Why do we need the government running our schools, as well? To standardize a curriculum?

Electronics companies use the Underwriters's Lab to certify their products. I'm sure schools can have something similar.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#143

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Nov 22, 2010, 5:15 AM UTC

ohyes wrote: post #141

yummyfajitas wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relative to the Military or Social Security budgets, the cost would barely even register on the balance sheet. WTF? We already spent more on education than the military ($859B > $731B, circa 2008, 2009 numbers not available yet). If we tripled spending, education would be bigger than SS, military, medicare and medicaid combined . Unless you are Paul Krugman, I think that level of spending would register on the balanc…

WTF? You are extremely recklessly wrong and should be ashamed of it... We actually spend about 70 billion on education. If you look at this department of education's website, you can find a .pdf or excel sheet of the actual budget. It is here: http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/history/index.html If you look at the department of defense's website here: http://comptroller.defense.gov/budget.html You will notice…

We actually spend about 70 billion on education.

You have a very narrow definition of "we", which apparently only includes the federal government. It's true - if you focus solely on the branch of government which is not responsible for education, you find low spending on education.

Also, Chantrill may be biased, but he also cites his sources. Specifically, the census and the CBO. I refer to his site because he combines both state and federal numbers.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#144

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Nov 22, 2010, 5:18 AM UTC

apu wrote: post #139

yummyfajitas wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relative to the Military or Social Security budgets, the cost would barely even register on the balance sheet. WTF? We already spent more on education than the military ($859B > $731B, circa 2008, 2009 numbers not available yet). If we tripled spending, education would be bigger than SS, military, medicare and medicaid combined . Unless you are Paul Krugman, I think that level of spending would register on the balanc…

I dunno how they were calculated, but the education vs. military spending numbers you quote are really out of whack. For education vs. military (dod + homeland security), I see the following from different sources: [1] reports 45.4 billion vs. 660.6 billion [2] reports ~100 billion vs. ~700 billion [3] reports 157 billion vs. 895 billion [4] reports 89.4 billion vs. 544.5 billion Your source is clearly an outlier. [1…

Education is provided by state and local governments. Your sources are all federal. Mine adds up federal, state and local numbers.

Military spending is also negligible if we focus only on city government. So what?

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#145

Post by brg » Mon, Nov 22, 2010, 7:46 AM UTC

dewittm wrote: post #120

brg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current pay for teaching is already astronomical, although admittedly entry level pay is poor and benefits only come with some seniority. To enumerate what needs to be considered in pay, 1. 100% health care coverage for individuals and families. 2. Vacation on top of all major holidays off. 3. Teachers have student loan forgiveness of 100% after 5 years of seniority. 4. They need not pay social security instead l…

My mother's a public school teacher in Indiana and only some of these benefits are familiar sounding to me. Perhaps I just haven't been paying attention. Do you have any sources for these claims?

To start:

For the rule of 90: http://www.mnpera.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={079559...

For salary increased this year and over last ten: http://teacherportal.com/salary/Minnesota-teacher-salary

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#146

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Nov 22, 2010, 4:10 PM UTC

HaloZero wrote: post #136

yummyfajitas wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't have standardized foreign language or art tests?

Foreign language yes, but art? I could memorize a bunch of facts about art, styles, etc. But that's not the same as doing well in the class. I could be a brilliant artist who learned a lot in the class because the teacher motivated me but I have no idea what the difference between penciling vs stenciling. (I have no knowledge of art, I just said that example as something that sounds similar but could be very differen…

Most education in art focuses on the technical and contextual (history, styles, etc) aspects. The contextual aspects lend themselves quite well to standardized testing.

The technical aspects don't lend themselves very well to a "fill in the bubbles" test, but that doesn't mean they are subjective. Testing them would be more difficult, but it is routinely done.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#147

Post by lists » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 12:08 AM UTC

mkramlich wrote: post #140

lists wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean differences between socio-economic strata. It's not popular to talk about so-called 'cultural differences' between races because it's the wrong way to talk about it.

why is it wrong?

Incorrect would be the more precise term. The distribution of race/ethnicity across class is historical, not structural. In other words, no matter where you go, the lower class is always described as possessing ineffectual "attitudes towards education, ambition, work and success". It's rather uninformed to suggest these are inherent "cultural" attitudes rather than the conditioning of being on the bottom.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#148

Post by mkramlich » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 5:22 AM UTC

lists wrote: post #147

mkramlich wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is it wrong?

Incorrect would be the more precise term. The distribution of race/ethnicity across class is historical, not structural. In other words, no matter where you go, the lower class is always described as possessing ineffectual "attitudes towards education, ambition, work and success". It's rather uninformed to suggest these are inherent "cultural" attitudes rather than the conditioning of being on the bottom.

I never said it was inherent. I just said there are clearly cultural differences across races [meaning in the US today.] This is not a unique position held only by me. There are plenty of black people, for example, who will openly talk about this, including Bill Cosby and Thomas Sowell, among others. Although on a separate point I'd say it's not 100% proven that somehow all failure or imperfection on the part of black Americans, to take one just group, is solely the fault of feeling oppressed, or having suffered from a history of oppression or being a minority or "on the bottom." Some of it may just be due to the results of personal choices and personal behavior and willpower. It's almost shocking to me that I have to suggest this with such caution and delicacy.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#149

Post by lists » Tue, Nov 23, 2010, 7:56 AM UTC

mkramlich wrote: post #148

lists wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect would be the more precise term. The distribution of race/ethnicity across class is historical, not structural. In other words, no matter where you go, the lower class is always described as possessing ineffectual "attitudes towards education, ambition, work and success". It's rather uninformed to suggest these are inherent "cultural" attitudes rather than the conditioning of being on the bottom.

I never said it was inherent. I just said there are clearly cultural differences across races [meaning in the US today.] This is not a unique position held only by me. There are plenty of black people, for example, who will openly talk about this, including Bill Cosby and Thomas Sowell, among others. Although on a separate point I'd say it's not 100% proven that somehow all failure or imperfection on the part of blac…

>I never said it was inherent.

No, you didn't. Forgive my use of the word to describe your position but perhaps you'll see what I had in mind when I did.

>I just said there are clearly cultural differences across races [meaning in the US today.]

So a lower class black participates in the same culture as an upper middle-class black? (anecdotal: I sure as hell don't) A lower-class white shares culturally with middle-class whites? In "attitudes towards education, ambition, work and success" no less (which is what your brought up cultural difference with regard to)? Perhaps the wording of your claim is leading my astray, but as it's written it's not very defensible and can only make sense once your inject it with a vertical register, socio-economic status, good ol' fashioned class relations.

>There are plenty of black people, for example, who will openly talk about this, including Bill Cosby and Thomas Sowell, among others.

Irrelevant.

>Although on a separate point I'd say it's not 100% proven that somehow all failure or imperfection on the part of black Americans, to take one just group, is solely the fault of feeling oppressed, or having suffered from a history of oppression or being a minority or "on the bottom." Some of it may just be due to the results of personal choices and personal behavior and willpower.

Personal choices? Personal behavior and willpower? Sure. Now are you willing to scale that explanation uniformly across an entire sector of the population? Unless you're going to defend something very improbable, you have to explore more comprehensive causalities. The latter don't have to directly do with anything, but can and do mediate every other intersecting relation of cause.