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Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

nytimes.com

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Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#111

Post by aik »

forkandwait wrote: post #43

My favorite recent quote: We all know that successful teaching beyond the infant class involves (a) wide and detailed knowledge of a difficult subject, (b) an enthusiasm for the subject which communicates itself to the class, and (c) a few simple tricks of the trade, learnt by anyone from a single volume and from about three weeks of experience. The art of the Educationalizer is to expand (c) into a mass of pretentio…

In our current system, peer review is very difficult, and parent review is even more difficult. Parent review is difficult because a) parents don't interact with teachers much and b) any teacher flunking a parent's child will often rate the teacher poorly.

What's being talked about here isn't revolutionizing - it's altering an already very broken system.

What I can foresee happening is the stuff you talk about going forward, and missing out on the 10 other things that need to happen to make it actually successful and so being an abject failure as a result. The other things that need to happen as to make any of this successful are (and which are more important imho): work the system to get communities and parents more involved, change the grading system, change the perspective on the purpose of standardized tests, change focus of classroom subjects, teacher purpose/focus, student purpose, etc.)

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#113

Post by tzs »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #89
tzs wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once made $7000 for 30 minutes work. By your argument, I'm paid roughly as well as a top athlete (per minute worked, not per calendar year). The problem, of course, is that was a one-time opportunity. I can't get 30-minute intervals at will that pay anything remotely like that.

The problem, of course, is that was a one-time opportunity. I can't get 30-minute intervals at will that pay anything remotely like that. Teachers can regularly get 9 months of 37 hour weeks that pay quite well. It's not a one-time opportunity.

But engineers (who you compared them to on a per month basis) regularly get 12 months of work, so they aren't comparable.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#115

Post by mkramlich »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #66
jdietrich wrote: post #55

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

Relative to the Military or Social Security budgets, the cost would barely even register on the balance sheet. WTF? We already spent more on education than the military ($859B > $731B, circa 2008, 2009 numbers not available yet). If we tripled spending, education would be bigger than SS, military, medicare and medicaid combined . Unless you are Paul Krugman, I think that level of spending would register on the balanc…

> Further, teachers are already paid roughly as well as engineers (per month worked, not per calendar year). See this thread for details:

For certain rather extreme and wide definitions of "roughly". :) Part-time Kindergarten teachers != community college professors != Harvard professors. Pretty wide range of pay there. Whereas engineers always pay pretty damn good, and don't have to babysit children.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#116

Post by mkramlich »

hdctambien wrote: post #105
forkandwait wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hehe... I just thought of this: I bet there is easily a consensus between parents and peers on the suckiest 5% for most schools in the US today. When it actually becomes hard to all agree on the suckiest 1 out of 20, we probably would be a long way toward better schools.

A woman I work with's daughter just started school this year. She decided to send her to a private school because if she went to the public school she would be one of only a handful of white children. She didn't want her daughter to "grow up feeling like a minority". We live in Boston, there are plenty of white people here. She lives in the same neighborhood as the mayor of Boston. There are plenty of white people th…

Though it's not popular to talk about it, there are cultural differences between races, as a general rule -- especially regarding attitudes towards education, ambition, work and success.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#117

Post by mkramlich »

gxs wrote: post #2

I went to an inner city Los Angeles high school. You wouldn't believe some of the individuals that can pass as qualified teachers. People that they themselves were never taught correctly, and went straight into teaching after college. This of course is the double whammy - poorly academically prepared people, with little real world experience - so they fail students on both counts. And yet...the most annoying part of…

I may not have had to deal with as bad of a school as you did, but from what I have experienced in school life in the past, I have come to the conclusion that the #1 problem is students, with #2 being parents, maybe #3 being the way the (US at least) public school system is designed, and then somewhere at #4 or below would be teachers. Not saying that every teacher is great or without flaw. Just that many are good, many are decent, and many are -- well -- mostly insignificant compared to the impact of the students themselves, their parents, the system, etc.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#118

Post by johnny22 »

forkandwait wrote: post #77
pmb wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unions? That's your bad guy here? Teachers are poorly-paid and looked-down-upon in our society and you are blaming the only organization which sticks up for them? The unions suck, certainly, but firing teachers only works if there is a ready supply of quality replacements. Plus, if you remove the perk of job security, you are going to have to significantly increase teacher pay to compensate. Even worse than this,…

Teachers aren't particularly poorly paid -- they make about 45k a year with summers off (that is the country wide salary, the median elementary school teacher salary in San Jose is 65k) and potentially have a great job (when a class is good, teaching is a joy as long as enough easy kids balance the hard ones). The joyfulness is really important -- private school teachers make shit, but teaching there is great fun and…

you talkin about this $45 like it means something. All the teachers i know get very little supplies, and end up having to purchase their own paper , or even BOOKS.. seriously..

$45K is a pittance for what these teachers deal with in a city like Baltimore.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#119

Post by dewittm »

forkandwait wrote: post #97
natnat wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get a R.N. degree at a community college in three or four years. Getting a job at as a teacher requires just as much education plus certification, which usually requires a bachelor's degree plus additional classes plus a bunch of student teaching.

Yeah, but for R.N. classes you probably actually have to study. ;)

And that right there is half the problem. Of course, with the low salaries for teachers, all the best talent would rather work hard at something that pays well, so both the degree and the salaries would have to be changed in concert.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#120

Post by dewittm »

brg wrote: post #67
jdietrich wrote: post #55

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

The current pay for teaching is already astronomical, although admittedly entry level pay is poor and benefits only come with some seniority. To enumerate what needs to be considered in pay, 1. 100% health care coverage for individuals and families. 2. Vacation on top of all major holidays off. 3. Teachers have student loan forgiveness of 100% after 5 years of seniority. 4. They need not pay social security instead l…

My mother's a public school teacher in Indiana and only some of these benefits are familiar sounding to me. Perhaps I just haven't been paying attention. Do you have any sources for these claims?
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