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Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

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Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#141

Post by Balvarez »

ip26 wrote: post #102
fzeroracer wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an argument against the authors points that does not consist of adhominem and projection? The self-made illusion is precisely that because we ignore the many things that gave us a headstart in life and allowed us to do the things that would've caused other people to fail. The only reason why I'm here now is because I took on a risk of going bankrupt moving across the country for a job opportunity in an in…

There's always an element of chance in success. Every new business was a risk. Every move across the country a bet. Every new product a gamble. To say, "well I/he/she just got lucky" I think ignores that fact. Sports are perhaps a good allegory. Sports always have chance & luck. But the best teams have a track record of tilting the odds consistently in their favor, by working to minimize chance and making the most of…

No they generally say they have deep pockets and can afford the best players.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#142

Post by dev_dull »

titanomachy wrote: post #76
dev_dull wrote: post #54

It's really quite amazing to see the attacks lately against successful people. I can't help but feel we're being prepped to accept a new tax structure (or possibly new economical model), and the first step is to whip up everyone against the future fodder (wealthy individuals). The poor spendthrift vagabond says to a rich man: "I have discovered there is enough money in the world for all of us, if it was equally divid…

[flagged]

Who cares what someone wastes their money on? If you believe a “fool and their money are soon parted” then the only explanation for life-long wealthy people is that they don’t waste it.

There are many problems in our country. Are you doing something personally to make it better, or just attacking others and asking someone else to fix it for you?

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#143

Post by es7 »

norswap wrote: post #4

"why do millennials act like it doesn't exist?" Hhm, do they really?

I see these types of articles way more than I hear fellow millenials discussing being 'self-made'. It seems almost trendy these days to try to point out all the ways that successful people just got lucky or substantial assistance.

It seems highly related to this trendy idea that all people are fundamentally equal in all forms of capability, except maybe where poor diet hindered education or something.

Individuals vary tremendously, and that's all luck too. Nature+Nurture. Everyone gets something from their parents:

Personality is 40-60% heritable* IQ is 50-80% heritable

So around half of who you are comes from who your parents are. The rest is luck. Even before you're born. My point is that every single person is basically 100% a combination of inheritance and luck. Maybe that inheritance is good genes, good parenting and money or maybe it isn't. Maybe in that context, a 15k loan isn't that big a deal. Maybe it is. Either way, it's counter productive to pick out a single aspect or two of a person and dismantle their success because they had THAT particular advantage.

* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5068715/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#144

Post by staunch »

honkycat wrote: post #73

I like that we keep talking about privilege, no matter how much it irks the hacker news elite. I have a previous comment about this[0], so I will not go into too much detail. Nobody thinks they are rich or privileged. Now, the Hendersons down the street? THOSE PEOPLE are rich! I feel that people underestimate the huge effect of having a safety net under them. It is the difference between going to the amazing state sc…

If you use the word "wealth" instead of "privilege" there's not much to argue about.

The problem is that there are many people today (with very dubious motivations) trying to confuse the issue of wealth with other issues. The great divide is today, as it has been since the dawn of civilization, between the people that have money and the people that have-not money.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#145

Post by adventured »

cableshaft wrote: post #111
latencyloser wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of when I was working at Microsoft and a colleague said to me: "I don't know how anyone raises a family off less than $130k/year." I laughed and asked him if he'd ever been anywhere in the US outside of Seattle before. Turns out, he hadn't and assumed the insane cost of living we're subject to in this area also exists in the rest of the country. My point of reference is my family's house in a rural ar…

Between the cost of daycare, health care/insurance, pet care, car payments and maintenance, student loan payments, and then a mortgage (even a cheap mortgage) on top of that, not to mention saving something for retirement, forget the 10x your salary by the time you retire or whatever, and once every 2-3 years go on a vacation at least to the next state over, I do sometimes wonder how households can make ends meet on…

> Between the cost of daycare

Children cost money, budget accordingly and have the income/s to support them or don't have them. That's a wildly unpopular statement in my experience because so few people like personal responsibility, and yet it's still the economic reality regardless. It's not asking much that people wait until they're financially stable to have children, or otherwise accept that they may not get to have everything they want at an early age. Costs and trade-offs.

> health care/insurance

Most full-time employed persons have their healthcare largely covered by their employer. Among everything you listed, health risks & costs are by far the big concern and are often not something you can easily control.

> pet care

That's a pretty easy choice. Stop having pets until you can soundly afford them. What's more important, pets or saving for children and housing? Car payment or pet?

> car payments

There are plenty of good used cars to be had for $12k to $16k. If you take care of them, they'll last a long time.

> student loan payments

Do not under any circumstances go to an out of state school, or in-state school, that costs $30k+ per year, unless you're going to have the income to afford it. There are a lot of quality state universities that are very affordable.

> and then a mortgage

A monthly mortgage payment at the median is no more expensive than renting. Where you take an economic beating, is inflation + property taxes + maintenance over time; in the form of real value capture destruction (net retaining ~$0.20-$0.30 on the dollar of what you put in).

> wedding costs are insane

Stop having $35,000 weddings. It's really not complicated. Down payment on the median $225,000 house, or have a $25k-$35k wedding. Skip the ridiculous wedding cost, spend $5,000 instead on a nice outdoor BBQ for 30-50 guests, keep the rest to throw at a down payment (or pet care if that's a greater priority). It's nothing more than economic sanity and understanding that you don't get to have everything you want, especially all at once.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#146

Post by lwhalen »

EliRivers wrote: post #138
refurb wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The logic of this argument seems to be: luck is involved in being successful, therefore personal effort plays no role at all. It makes no sense. I like your measure relative to what you were born into. Didn’t get enough to eat when you were a child and are now a millionaire. Self-made! Born into a millionaire family and turned that into a billion? Self-made! I’m personally thankful the tall poppy syndrome is…

If I was born poor, and then someone gives me a bunch of money, by this argument I am self-made.

Yeah, that's what we call "a job". Make yourself useful to a rich enough person or group of people, they'll "give you a bunch of money" and call it a "salary".

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#147

Post by [deleted] »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #139
honkycat wrote: post #73

I like that we keep talking about privilege, no matter how much it irks the hacker news elite. I have a previous comment about this[0], so I will not go into too much detail. Nobody thinks they are rich or privileged. Now, the Hendersons down the street? THOSE PEOPLE are rich! I feel that people underestimate the huge effect of having a safety net under them. It is the difference between going to the amazing state sc…

Sorry for being blunt, but coming from a dirt poor background I've been there and done that. You sound like a really pampered person who cannot imagine living anywhere but in a two bedroom apartment with a maid and on-premises gym. No, it's not that bad and you can read books equally well in your own apartment or in a public library. You have a couple of valid points about medical debt, which is a crazy American thin…

[deleted]

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#149

Post by weberc2 »

cableshaft wrote: post #111
latencyloser wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of when I was working at Microsoft and a colleague said to me: "I don't know how anyone raises a family off less than $130k/year." I laughed and asked him if he'd ever been anywhere in the US outside of Seattle before. Turns out, he hadn't and assumed the insane cost of living we're subject to in this area also exists in the rest of the country. My point of reference is my family's house in a rural ar…

Between the cost of daycare, health care/insurance, pet care, car payments and maintenance, student loan payments, and then a mortgage (even a cheap mortgage) on top of that, not to mention saving something for retirement, forget the 10x your salary by the time you retire or whatever, and once every 2-3 years go on a vacation at least to the next state over, I do sometimes wonder how households can make ends meet on…

I don't think it's crazy with some budgeting. These numbers seem pretty conservative for most parts of the country:

Monthly take-home income (after health insurance, taxes, and 10% retirement): $6000

Rent/mortgage: $1200

Car payments: $750

Student loan minimum payments: $750

Shopping: $600

Groceries: $500

Savings: $250

Transport/auto maintenance: $200

Restaurants/bars: $200

Utilities: $200

Subscriptions: $100

Other insurance: $100

Haircuts/cosmetics/etc: $75

Pet care: $50

That leaves ~$1000 for paying down debt, saving for things like vacations, furniture upgrades, etc. I'm probably missing some things, but I'm also being pretty conservative with most categories. Many things will also vary by region.

EDIT: Some updates to figures.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#150

Post by ska »

darawk wrote: post #26

This is such nonsense. First of all, there are absolutely people who come from dirt poverty and become wildly successful. Second of all, plenty of people receive lots of help from their parents and amount to precisely nothing. IMO it's fair to refer to your success as "self made" if you exceed the median success level of your class peer group by a substantial margin. If you immigrate from Africa with nothing, and you…

Relying on "self made person" as a model for success and economic mobility is very much like relying on "win a lottery" as a model for retirement planning. The fact you can find a few people for whom it worked is not a reflection on its viability in general.
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