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Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

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Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#111

Post by cableshaft »

latencyloser wrote: post #14
Isamu wrote: post #2

>She told me, “I was curious, but I don't know how a single person in America who doesn't have family money could buy anything, I really don’t, if they're not working in finance or they're not a doctor. ” Easy, there are vast areas of America where housing is more affordable. I certainly got zero cash from family when I bought a home. My family put money into giving me food and shelter growing up though. This is kind…

This reminds me of when I was working at Microsoft and a colleague said to me: "I don't know how anyone raises a family off less than $130k/year." I laughed and asked him if he'd ever been anywhere in the US outside of Seattle before. Turns out, he hadn't and assumed the insane cost of living we're subject to in this area also exists in the rest of the country. My point of reference is my family's house in a rural ar…

Between the cost of daycare, health care/insurance, pet care, car payments and maintenance, student loan payments, and then a mortgage (even a cheap mortgage) on top of that, not to mention saving something for retirement, forget the 10x your salary by the time you retire or whatever, and once every 2-3 years go on a vacation at least to the next state over, I do sometimes wonder how households can make ends meet on less than $100k a year, and have no idea how a household can get by on the average $60k a year.

I know living in certain areas are a lot cheaper, but the salaries are usually a lot lower in those areas as well.

Not to mention get married (wedding costs are insane, going through that right now) or other life events.

We make more than that, have no children, and we're still shuffling money around to make it all work. I can't wait to finally pay off my student loans in a couple of years. My fiancee might never get hers paid off, she's barely making a dent in hers.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#112

Post by fireflash38 »

honkycat wrote: post #73

I like that we keep talking about privilege, no matter how much it irks the hacker news elite. I have a previous comment about this[0], so I will not go into too much detail. Nobody thinks they are rich or privileged. Now, the Hendersons down the street? THOSE PEOPLE are rich! I feel that people underestimate the huge effect of having a safety net under them. It is the difference between going to the amazing state sc…

Every time I see privilege come up, people start denying it, or excusing it. Saying things like "I still had to work hard for this!"

It's a tricky subject to talk about, as the article references, specifically because it's hard to differentiate between what you got from privilege and what you got from hard work.

I find analogies best to talk about it. Your goal is to reach the top floor of a building. Some people start at the penultimate floor. Some start on the 2nd floor. Others are in the basement. Every single one takes effort to climb the steps. But some have a big head start, and can even fail down a few floors and still have it easier than other people.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#113

Post by staunch »

The term self-made is just too imprecise to be useful. The three major factors involved in an individual's success are:

#1 Genetics - High general intelligence, ambition, etc.

#2 Environment - Highly educated well-off parents, etc.

#3 Opportunity - Support of powerful people, etc.

You probably can't do much without at least one of these factors. Most people that do big things have all three working in their favor.

People like Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page, Peter Theil, Elon Musk, Reid Hoffman, and Paul Graham had all three.

On the other hand, people like Steve Jobs, John Carmack, Palmer Luckey, and Larry Ellison only had #1 working for them, which is why their success is so much more impressive.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#114

Post by fzeroracer »

darawk wrote: post #94
fzeroracer wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an argument against the authors points that does not consist of adhominem and projection? The self-made illusion is precisely that because we ignore the many things that gave us a headstart in life and allowed us to do the things that would've caused other people to fail. The only reason why I'm here now is because I took on a risk of going bankrupt moving across the country for a job opportunity in an in…

> Do you have an argument against the authors points that does not consist of adhominem and projection? Did you read the first part of my comment? Literally the first two paragraphs are exactly what you're asking for. > The self-made illusion is precisely that because we ignore the many things that gave us a headstart in life and allowed us to do the things that would've caused other people to fail. The only reason w…

No, I likely wouldn't have been able to do much else. I was already poor with health issues. It was only because of that first job that I was able to start addressing those problems before they became dire. I had to take a deep gamble because I quite literally moved with $0 to my name.

It sounds like you're really out of touch with how deep poverty can affect people.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#115

Post by arendtio »

radmuzom wrote: post #22

Resonates strongly with me. Many of my school friends went to the best colleges in my country - all the time attributing their success solely to "hard work". However, they always seemed to ignore the fact that their parents paid a lot of money for them to attend the best tuition outside of school. I did not have that option and did not get admitted to any of the famous colleges (I am discounting the constant mental t…

Well, your school friends might know some people who went to the same schools but weren't as successful because they were 'lazy'. Ergo their 'hard work' is what differentiates them from those people (on the last mile). You, however, look at it with a different scope.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#116

Post by 40acres »

Rising inequality and the expansion of the welfare state have transformed "self-made" into an aspiration. Even prior to the gilded age being "self-made" was rare.. only a few people were able to pull themselves up to success. If you want to read an American self-made tale pick up "Up From Slavery".

Anyway, I grew up lower-middle class. My parents were immigrants and we came from the poorest country in the western hemisphere (Haiti) with no generational wealth. I don't consider myself 'self-made', I'd say there was a mix of luck, support from the state (rent control, FAFSA, EITC, etc.) and self directed hard work.

It sounds like to me that the author got some "generational help" and feels like they were not able to capitalize, unlike some of the other profiled in this article. And thus is taking a zero-sum view of the concept of "self-made".

Most parent's would do anything for their kids lives to end up better than theirs did. I won't have any qualms about paying my kids tuition or helping with a down payment when the time comes.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#117

Post by EpicEng »

radmuzom wrote: post #33
darawk wrote: post #26

This is such nonsense. First of all, there are absolutely people who come from dirt poverty and become wildly successful. Second of all, plenty of people receive lots of help from their parents and amount to precisely nothing. IMO it's fair to refer to your success as "self made" if you exceed the median success level of your class peer group by a substantial margin. If you immigrate from Africa with nothing, and you…

Down-voted for such a strong word - "nonsense". See my other comment [1]. I am as self-made as anyone can be, with a very high standard of living in my country without taking even one cent from my parents beyond a certain age. But all that is because of one stroke of luck - I am proud of the fact that I was able to use that luck to my advantage but under no illusion that all my success is due to me alone. [1] https:/…

>But all that is because of one stroke of luck - I am proud of the fact that I was able to use that luck to my advantage but under no illusion that all my success is due to me alone.

I would call you fortunate, not lucky. You didn't fall sideways into your success; you were given an opportunity and _you_ made the most of it. Many others may not have done the same.

We all owe a part of our success to _some_ number of external factors, but go deep enough and it gets absurd (e.g. we all owe our success to irrigation because, without it, we'd be subsistence farmers.) Seeing an opportunity and pouncing on it is not the same as being handed a trust fund and a full ride to Harvard.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#118

Post by weberc2 »

astrodust wrote: post #98
darawk wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have an argument against the authors points that does not consist of adhominem and projection? Did you read the first part of my comment? Literally the first two paragraphs are exactly what you're asking for. > The self-made illusion is precisely that because we ignore the many things that gave us a headstart in life and allowed us to do the things that would've caused other people to fail. The only reason w…

Yeah, like fall back into poverty. People that are wildly successful often hit some very narrow window. You can be persistent and try and try again which increases your odds, but it's still a crap-shoot.

You have to be lucky perhaps to be wildly successful, but you'd have to be quite unlucky to work hard and take smart risks and fail to be successful at all. Similarly, you have to be very, very lucky to rise from poverty to wealth without working hard or taking smart risks. In particular, seeing and executing on a narrow-window opportunity that others miss is itself an accomplishment.

The idea that self-made success is purely a matter of luck is either a myth or true only by some meaningless definition of what constitutes "luck" (i.e., you're lucky that you have the ability and personality to reliably execute well and achieve success).

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#119

Post by cableshaft »

adventured wrote: post #100
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the average cost of wedding in the US being above $35k ( https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-the-average-american-... ), $45k of downpayment seems to be well within the means of an average family.

It's very doable, especially if you have a partner to split it with. Where the $45k gets someone under 30, is just that it can take several years to put together that sum. Most people don't start to hit their earning stride until the very late 20s or early 30s. So you're in the median bracket and you get your first serious, solid paying job by ~24/25. It's reasonable that if you're diligent about savings every month,…

Don't forget student loans. We have a whole generation of people that are saddled with large student loans. They can easily spend all the money that would have gone towards saving for a house downpayment on paying their student loan payment instead.

Re: Why the “Self-Made” Success Story Is a Myth

#120

Post by tomjakubowski »

AboutTheWhisles wrote: post #67
latencyloser wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of when I was working at Microsoft and a colleague said to me: "I don't know how anyone raises a family off less than $130k/year." I laughed and asked him if he'd ever been anywhere in the US outside of Seattle before. Turns out, he hadn't and assumed the insane cost of living we're subject to in this area also exists in the rest of the country. My point of reference is my family's house in a rural ar…

The same extrapolations happen with population density. People in LA and New York think the world is overpopulated and everyone is on top of each other. They don't realize that 45 minutes north east of San Francisco there are no houses, no street lights and no cell phone reception.

What are you talking about? I don't know anyone in Los Angeles who believes this. I doubt very many people in NY or SF believe it either.
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