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German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

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Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#141

Post by hueving »

jstanley wrote: post #99
BjoernKW wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that no borders at all is a desirable state. However, in order to achieve this, certain prerequisites have to be met first. Opening borders has to be accompanied and indeed preceded by economic development. The Schengen agreement for example only works because of the relatively similar economic situations of the member countries and even then it unfortunately has been a considerable cause for discord in recen…

What bad things do you think would happen if opening borders were not accompanied or preceded by economic development? Or, to put it another way: what gives you the right to exist in a public place in the country you live in, but not a poorer person?

It depends on if you think the immigrants deserve the social safety net the rest of the citizens have. The social safety nets of rich countries are completely unsustainable if they allow anyone to come in and receive them. There is a reason that there isn't a single country with any kind of strong social safety net that has open borders. The math isn't even close to working.

If you don't apply the social safety net to the incoming immigrants, I don't see how you hold any higher moral ground than people who want controlled migration.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#142

Post by flyinghamster »

ilamont wrote: post #21

There are some weird border situations up on US/Canada border, including: * Library in Vermont and Quebec straddling the border: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-us-canada-border-r... * Canadian train that crosses northern Maine and used to have U.S. border guards board it (can't find the resource, but I saw this on TV show some years ago) * Thousand Islands border between Ontario and NY State, which can be…

Add Hyder, Alaska, accessible by road only from Canada. It also gets its telephone service and utilities from the Canadian side.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#143

Post by sethrin »

flyinghamster wrote: post #142
ilamont wrote: post #21

There are some weird border situations up on US/Canada border, including: * Library in Vermont and Quebec straddling the border: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-us-canada-border-r... * Canadian train that crosses northern Maine and used to have U.S. border guards board it (can't find the resource, but I saw this on TV show some years ago) * Thousand Islands border between Ontario and NY State, which can be…

Add Hyder, Alaska, accessible by road only from Canada. It also gets its telephone service and utilities from the Canadian side.

Most places in SE Alaska are inaccessible by road. Skagway, Haines, and Hyder are the three exceptions. The highways to these necessarily go through Canada, but I'm not sure why that would make them remarkable?

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#144

Post by rumcajz »

Faaak wrote: post #2

> There is no border control due to the Schengen Agreement, therefore daily life is not really impacted. That's the most interesting part to me. I cross the border every day to go to work. Yet, when a friend came to visit us and we we to the city, he couldn't believe that we were crossing a border that easily (France-Switzerland). It was literally an open fence with a sign welcoming you. It's really awesome when you…

Before WWI, it used to be like that everywhere.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#145

Post by sonnyblarney »

lucideer wrote: post #125
mamon wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> paranoia around Syrian refugees. 99% of them are not refugees, 99% of them are not Syrian, most of them have fake IDs or no ID at all Many of them are criminals or even terrorists There's nothing paranoid about trying to impose basic security measures in such situation, such as a border control.

Do you have sources for this info?

There is no 'paranoia' about migration, rather a reasonable response to a calamity.

In 2015 - entire nations population swelled by double digits as irregular migrants swept through - for example, Hungary, Austria, Bulgaria etc. are only the size of a small American city.

So, can you imagine if 3 million migrants swept through Sand Diego? Or 30 million migrants swept through the Southern US? Would this be 'an issue of concern'? Of course it would - and that's the relative magnitude of disruption for some of these countries, particularly the tiny Balkan states which are quite poor - so much so that citizens of places like Albania are just as poor as the migrants sweeping through there.

In 2017, the migration issue is no longer Syrian, as the aggregate numbers have calmed, but there are still a considerable number of migrants arriving, mostly from Africa, via Italy. [1]

As for their 'qualification as refugees' - it's generally true that most don't qualify. It's hard to quantify precisely, but merely being from an African country does not immediately qualify one for status. Migrants from Eritrea (Africa), Afghanistan and Syria have special status and are generally processed differently, but again these groups (at least the later) are not so common.

And of course Schengen definitely allows for countries to put up border controls on an as needed basis, and the current migration calamity is a reasonable candidate for that need.

Just as some people are too ideological about hard borders, we shouldn't be so ideological about open borders either; 'Smart borders' ie more open where they make sense, but with practical flexibility I think are best suited.

As for Germany/Belgium and similar enclaves ... it only works when there is an economic and cultural equilibrium between nations - otherwise, it's just going to cause problems. A tiny hole in a border can create an existential challenge for nations, and massive humanitarian and legal headaches.

I should add that border checks go up and down for all sorts of reason, and this is not a new thing. I know that in the early 2000's I was stopped a long between France and Italy. I don't know what the issue then was, but it's not like it felt odd to have to waive to the Gendarmes while crossing an international border.

It's a big issue with existential and permanent consequences, so it has to be taken very seriously, with deliberation.

[1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/italy-swamped_switzerl...

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#146

Post by fyfy18 »

FigBug wrote: post #7
Faaak wrote: post #2

> There is no border control due to the Schengen Agreement, therefore daily life is not really impacted. That's the most interesting part to me. I cross the border every day to go to work. Yet, when a friend came to visit us and we we to the city, he couldn't believe that we were crossing a border that easily (France-Switzerland). It was literally an open fence with a sign welcoming you. It's really awesome when you…

This is what I was expecting when I drove between Switzerland-Italy in 2016. Except I was stopped, told to park, had my passport examined with with a loupe, and then was sent on my way. Are the borders back to normal now?

I crossed into Switzerland last year and people were randomly stopped and had their documents checked - it wasn't a border where you queue for hours, you just drive through and some people are flagged down.

Technically at an EU level you don't need to have any ID to cross a Schengen border, but some countries have laws requiring visitors to carry ID at all times. (And of course you won't be let onboard a commercial flight without valid ID)

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#147

Post by x220 »

jstanley wrote: post #70
jamiegreen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it paranoia, or just a sensible way for states to implement some semblance of control over their own border when a EU wide strategy seems out of reach?

It is no more "sensible" for a state to be exercising control of its border than it is for a town to be exercising control over its border. We're all free people in the world, and we should be able to move around it freely. There should be no borders at all.

>we should be able to move around it freely

What will you do when your neighbor country is stricken by communicable diseases? Will you still think that movement should be entirely restricted?

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#148

Post by thecopy »

fyfy18 wrote: post #146
FigBug wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I was expecting when I drove between Switzerland-Italy in 2016. Except I was stopped, told to park, had my passport examined with with a loupe, and then was sent on my way. Are the borders back to normal now?

I crossed into Switzerland last year and people were randomly stopped and had their documents checked - it wasn't a border where you queue for hours, you just drive through and some people are flagged down. Technically at an EU level you don't need to have any ID to cross a Schengen border, but some countries have laws requiring visitors to carry ID at all times. (And of course you won't be let onboard a commercial f…

I am flying a lot in Europe, and have not had to show ID on any commercial flight except one time (Nice-Zurich – although i think i went into the wrong queue.) Sometimes i have realized afterwards that i did not even bring any ID.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#149

Post by badpun »

majewsky wrote: post #136
badpun wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you are still very distinct from say Belarusians or Japanese? In a world with no borders, the Swiss, Belarusians and Japanese would need to somehow agree on a common set of values that would govern this borderless world. And it’s hard enough to agree on policies in a single country.

We already have a lot of nearly-worldwide treaties, so there is something like a common baseline already.

I'd say it's enough to look at the US as an anti-example of how politics look like when you create a giant political body which governs people of radically different value systems. IMO, the solution is to pass more power down, to local bodies, not up, to continental or global behemoths.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#150

Post by majewsky »

badpun wrote: post #149
majewsky wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have a lot of nearly-worldwide treaties, so there is something like a common baseline already.

I'd say it's enough to look at the US as an anti-example of how politics look like when you create a giant political body which governs people of radically different value systems. IMO, the solution is to pass more power down, to local bodies, not up, to continental or global behemoths.

The problem is that more and more issues are global. No single country can fix the effects of climate change on their territory, you need to cooperate on a global scale to do that.

Same e.g. for combatting tax evasion. Many other areas do not strictly require transnational collaboration, but it's immensely helpful. For example, the power network in Europe is incredibly resilient because it is shared across dozens of countries. So every individual failure is rather small, even if it takes a large nuclear power plant offline.

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