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EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

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Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#141

Post by tempestn »

Superleroy wrote: post #93
czardoz wrote: post #41

With the Great Firewall in China and Regressive laws in the EU, the US feels like the only place where users have the freedom to choose what their internet should be. Unfortunately, they have to deal with clicking on cookie notices, GDPR and now this.

I almost had to laugh after the US just recently abolished Net Neutrality. And what is the grind with cookie notices and GDPR? I very much like to know what companies can do with my data, what data they have and demand deletion of it. This is not against companies, it's for people. Companies should have had these information in the first place, now they just need to display it to the user but I guess thats too much t…

GDPR has a lot of positive elements (and some drawbacks). I can't imagine what you like about cookie notices though.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#142

Post by perl4ever »

majewsky wrote: post #84
perl4ever wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't win an argument about whether something is unclear by proving (let alone merely asserting) it is so. This is something a lot of people seem unclear on.

Why though? Email addresses are quite obviously "something that identifies a person".

I'm not debating what's clear or not to me. My point is that it's subjective and if someone says a thing is unclear, you can not necessarily make it clear to them or force them to admit they are lying about their perception. Arguing with confusion is like debating whether someone is in pain when they act like they are. It could be they are lying. It could be they are not. It could be they are particularly stupid.

I want to emphasize - you can be right or wrong about the GDPR, but that's not the same thing as being right or wrong about whether people are confused by it.

I think it should be obvious that debating feelings or perceptions or emotions of other people tends to lead to unproductive interpersonal interactions, but perhaps others have not noticed this phenomenon. I can't imagine winning a debate with someone over whether they are trolling or not. Even if it's really obvious, nobody can see inner motivations for sure.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#143

Post by dpwm »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #134
Loic wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR is very good in fact. If you read through it as a person, it is basically the way we should have operated from the start. Reading it while wearing the hat of my role in my company, I can see all the points where we are collecting data without a well defined process and clear understanding from the end users. It is hard to fix this, but it is for my own good as a person.

The real issue with GDPR is that it's extremely under specified and we're left to educate guesses to find out what and what's not illegal until the matter is settled in courts. For example a service provider can collect emails under the Article 6(b) clause to provide its services. But what happens when a user exits the contract? There's a conflict there because the provider need to keep hold of the email (to avoid us…

> The real issue with GDPR is that it's extremely under specified and we're left to educate guesses to find out what and what's not illegal until the matter is settled in courts.

Best practice now may not be best practice in future. Sure, there could be guidance produced. In fact there is, it's just usually by the enforcing bodies.

> what happens when a user exits the contract > to avoid user cancelling, asking for deletion then registering for another free trial

You can be sued for six years in the UK. Other jurisdictions I'm not so sure about. If you're providing a service and have agreed a jurisdiction and can be sued in that jurisdiction, there's your lawful basis.

The right to be forgotten only applies where the basis is purely consent. If you withdraw consent, and consent is the only basis, your data should be deleted. But if you're providing a service, then another basis applies: contract and legitimate business interest.

I think you'll find you have a legitimate business interest and a lawful purpose there for maintaining the email addresses -- as long as you don't later change the purpose and include them on a mailing list.

> So what's the best practice there? We're all taking guesses. And that's not the hallmark of a good law.

It's largely down to the enforcing body. The ICO (UK enforcing body) generally only fine after a major incident or you've failed to stop doing something really bad. Or you've set up a business that is egregiously scummy. You can read the list of fines online. [0]

It helps to see it more like fire legislation -- there are many ways to prevent and contain fire. You can seriously reduce the risk of fire and the consequences if one happens.

Breaches are similar. If you have a data breach, something's gone wrong. If you're not taking serious mitigation to prevent that from happening, then maybe you shouldn't be taking user data in the first place.

[0] https://ico.org.uk/action-weve-taken/enforcement/

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#144

Post by kodablah »

munchbunny wrote: post #4

I tend to put GDPR and this Copyright bill in different camps. The copyright bill is insane. GDPR is... also a bit insane, but the hard parts shine light on what we probably should have been doing which are now hard to do because we've spent so long ignoring the ethical elephant in the room. GDPR is very far from perfect, but I think it's still directionally good. The copyright bill is just bad.

> I tend to put GDPR and this Copyright bill in different camps [...] GDPR is very far from perfect, but I think it's still directionally good

Depends on the context. I tend to see how one begets the other. GDPR is good by intent, but is bad by implementation. The copyright bill is bad by both intent and presumably implementation. And since it turns out that only implementation matters, many would agree that we'd be better off without both and recognize that solutions to the problems the GDPR attempts to (heavy-handedly yet ambiguously) fix can have more measured steps towards remedies.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#145

Post by kodablah »

Scaevolus wrote: post #24
munchbunny wrote: post #4

I tend to put GDPR and this Copyright bill in different camps. The copyright bill is insane. GDPR is... also a bit insane, but the hard parts shine light on what we probably should have been doing which are now hard to do because we've spent so long ignoring the ethical elephant in the room. GDPR is very far from perfect, but I think it's still directionally good. The copyright bill is just bad.

At least GDPR is intended to help actual people, instead of increasing media-holders' stranglehold over their content.

Why does it matter what it is intended to do?

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#146

Post by mFixman »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #36

It would be prudent for Wikipedia at this time to shut down service in the EU, and simply put up a banner indicating that they can't comply with XYZ regulation. Regular folks in all walks of life, and also the bureaucracy would immediately be effected. It would be a 'shock' to Europe and a powerful signal of how vital these resources are, and the real extent they are messing with them. Basically, everyone would becom…

Regular folks don't read Wikipedia.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#147

Post by gtsteve »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #134
Loic wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR is very good in fact. If you read through it as a person, it is basically the way we should have operated from the start. Reading it while wearing the hat of my role in my company, I can see all the points where we are collecting data without a well defined process and clear understanding from the end users. It is hard to fix this, but it is for my own good as a person.

The real issue with GDPR is that it's extremely under specified and we're left to educate guesses to find out what and what's not illegal until the matter is settled in courts. For example a service provider can collect emails under the Article 6(b) clause to provide its services. But what happens when a user exits the contract? There's a conflict there because the provider need to keep hold of the email (to avoid us…

You can keep hold of data for a good business reason such as the one you stated. A hash of the e-mail address is probably reasonable, but you might also want some logic to detect users who use g-mail style addresses, i.e. "exampleuser+label@gmailcom", which allows one gmail account to have many forms of the e-mail address, in which case hashes don't work.

This is another class of an example I have seen cited around from time to time - a user signs up, performs fraudulent behaviour and then demands the records of this behaviour are removed and continues to perform fraudulent behaviour. You have a good business reason to store this data so therefore the user cannot demand you remove the data.

You shouldn't keep it longer than is necessary however. How long would work to deter this behaviour you describe? I'd say 30-90 days should be sufficient.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#148

Post by kodablah »

scarejunba wrote: post #126
iso1337 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's legislate that all cars must attain 150 mpg and cost less than $10,000. The EU proposals are approaching that kind of absurdity.

Let's just use the standard HN response here: your business model is not my problem. If you can't make that car, maybe cars shouldn't be permitted to exist.

Also: That all the cars are expensive and do X to limit MPG are because of lazy manufacturers, nothing in the law says they have to do it that way.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#149

Post by kodablah »

FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #70
berkmayer wrote: post #28

People underestimate what a big pain in the ass internet has been for the EU bureaucrats in the last 5 years. They can't just remove users freedom in one hit, they need to do it slowly: cookie laws, gdpr, copyright. And of course they always put a little bit of "sense" in every rule. This is a classic tactic that has been used by State organizations for maybe thousands of years. You can find examples in ancient Rome,…

GDPR is a good thing for citizens. But leave it to Americans to proclaim something that is good for people bad because it inconveniences corporations.

Disagree on whether it's a good thing, but regardless we citizens work at, own, and buy from corporations too.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#150

Post by kodablah »

quanticle wrote: post #22
sjroot wrote: post #3

Policies like this make it glaringly obvious how little our government representatives around the world understand technology. It almost seems malicious, or at the very least anticompetitive. Who has access to such filtering systems already, or the resources to create one? GRPR regulations, while I absolutely realize their necessity, have made it difficult for me to expand my side business into the EU. This would jus…

The greatest irony is EU regulators whining about the dominance of Google, Facebook, etc, while passing regulations like this which make it impossible for anyone to compete with their ilk. Google and Facebook will have no trouble building the automated filters that are mandated by this legislation. The impact of this will be felt entirely by smaller companies with either will shut down, or, more likely, will never be…

Despite best efforts, there's just no way around the general notion that affecting the tide affects all boats. You take the bad with the good of an internet with fewer restrictions, or you add both bad and good for everyone with restrictions. Even attempts to target legislation tend to have an unquantifiable ripple effect beyond the foresight of naive legislators.
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