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'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

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Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#141
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t disprove the “matter-like” observed behavior, it just shows that the particular assumptions under which exactly these non-found WIMPs were imagined were false.

If you have an infinite space of particle parameters and a series of tests keeps eliminating large swaths of this space, at some point it feels like you're playing a god of inbetweens game a la creationists arguing using gaps in the fossil record. There is a categorical difference, of course, but as a practical matter the parallels are useful, at what point do we table (for now) the search for the populist position a…

It's not "populist" anything. It's the best science that can be done:

https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/five-reasons-we-think-...

"Five Reasons We Think Dark Matter Exists: No other idea explains even two of these."

"1.) Galaxy Clusters"

"2.) Galactic Rotation Curves"

"3.) The Cosmic Microwave Background"

"4.) The Bullet Cluster"

"5.) Large-Scale Structure Formation"

From these 5, only dark matter matches all. Whereas MOND theories match only one, the "item number 2" and only as an attempt to after-the-fact-explanation of what's anyway observed, not as any prediction of anything new.

As I've quoted in my another message here:

"the predictions of dark matter were first made in the 1970s and 1980s, and were observationally confirmed later. This is not a case of tweaking the model to fit the data; this is a case of the best kind of science you hope for: where you make predictions, make the observations, and what you see validates and confirms the predictions you had made."

Moreover, there's nothing "large" of the possible space that is now excluded. The possible space includes everything that "behaves like matter". What's (still just "probably") eliminated is just what were for us, humans, in this particular moment of our history very convenient to happen: that the energies needed are exactly such that WIMPs that were conveniently postulated to be such can be generated by the device which design and maintenance costs less than 2% of the total cost of the F-35 fighter planes (the money invested and planned to be invested in F-35 is 75 times bigger than the international investment in LHC). It would have been luck if it had happened, but the possibilities are much bigger and include such which are going to remain physically unreachable to be produced by our technologies.

That we, humans, can't produce some particles doesn't disprove that dark matter exists when we have precise observations that can only be explained by dark matter and effectively by nothing else.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, you can show that the inertial mass cannot be negative (else the Lagrangian would not be bounded from below and therefore you could not minimise it; the whole of physics then comes crumbling down). Here's a purely thought-experiment argument for inertial mass not being negative: If you had an object with negative inertial mass, then pushing on that object would cause it to accelerate into your ha…

This assumes that the objects of opposite inertial mass are able to interact in the way you describe.

Specifically the interaction is: objects with positive inertia being able to 'push' objects with negative inertia.

This brings up an interesting question, is gravity about exchanging momentum? My mental model of gravity being spacetime curvature would imply no, but that intuition is likely wrong.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, you can show that the inertial mass cannot be negative (else the Lagrangian would not be bounded from below and therefore you could not minimise it; the whole of physics then comes crumbling down). Here's a purely thought-experiment argument for inertial mass not being negative: If you had an object with negative inertial mass, then pushing on that object would cause it to accelerate into your ha…

That's assuming your hand has negative inertial mass.. which I'm assuming it doesn't. Your scenario could create a black hole if I'm understanding correctly. Enough 'negative inertial mass' trapped in a feedback loop..

[flagged]

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't that allow for a "perpetual motion" setup where a blob of normal mass is in front of a blob of negative mass? The negative mass would push the positive mass forward, and then be attracted to it and follow. What am I misunderstanding?

Screwily to our intuitions negative mass goes in the opposite direction of its acceleration. It still goes away but the acceleration is in the same direction. It is weird and easy to be confused.

Damn, you're right, there goes the hoverboard.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would accelerate indefinitely, but it wouldn't break conservation of energy. Gravitational force is inversely proportional to distance^2, so potential energy (integral from 0 to infinity of Force dx) still converges to a finite number. Same with normal gravity, but backwards.

I think the weirdness is, the distance between masses wouldn't change, they'd just accelerate together, in the same direction, indefinitely. Both mass would experience negative repulsive force: F=Gm(-m)/r^2 =-Gm^2/r^2 The positive mass accelerates away from the negative mass, because F=ma => ma=-Gm^2/r^2 => a=-Gm/r^2 Now here's the kicker. If inertial mass (the m in F=ma), is the same thing as gravitational mass. The…

From what I gather, the negative mass repels the positive mass (which is thus accelerated away), and the positive mass attracts the negative mass, which (because it has negative mass) is thus also accelerated away.

Now, the kinetic energy of the positive mass grows, but the kinetic energy of the negative mass is negative and falls (because its mass is negative...), so energy is conserved.

EDIT to add: I think I gathered wrong. Apparently, there is runaway motion (same direction), energy and momentum is still conserved (since one mass is negative), and since total mass is zero, the two particles reach speed of light. Intriguing. See paper.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#146
Could this repulsive 'Dark Fluid' be what they use on the Enterprise to generate artificial gravity? They could pipe the stuff through the ceiling to press you down against the floor. But that would make the gravity point the wrong way in the decks above and below. But if they alternated the direction of "up" on each deck, maybe they would cancel each other out.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#147
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given there have been no detections of individual gravitons, saying it's a spin-2 gauge boson is speculation at best (though it might be what the model predicts)

If it weren't, general relativity would be wrong as well and we know that (in its domain of applicability) it's a highly accurate model. GR models gravity as fluctuations in the metric tensor of spacetime, which is a symmetric rank-2 tensor. This is all you need to know to conclude that a graviton (a quantize fluctation of that tensor) must be spin-2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton mentions "[I]t can be shown…

>"If it weren't, general relativity would be wrong as well and we know that (in its domain of applicability) it's a highly accurate model."

Somehow I doubt it. I bet as a save someone would propose "dark spin" or some elaborate calculations that shows a few factors happen to cancel out exactly but no one noticed before now.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#148
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an argument: If you think about it, "mass" actually means two different things. One one hand, there is mass as the "charge" of gravitational interaction, that is, the gravitational field generated by a body is proportional to its mass. Let's call this concept "gravitational mass". On the other hand, you have mass in the sense of "intertial mass", a body's resistance to change of velocity. Although we kinda tak…

> On the other hand, you can show that the inertial mass cannot be negative (else the Lagrangian would not be bounded from below and therefore you could not minimise it; the whole of physics then comes crumbling down). Here's a purely thought-experiment argument for inertial mass not being negative: If you had an object with negative inertial mass, then pushing on that object would cause it to accelerate into your ha…

> If you had an object with negative inertial mass, then pushing on that object would cause it to accelerate into your hand. This is a positive feedback loop that immediately results in the object and your hand exerting infinite amounts of force on each other

No, it doesn't; since this turns the repulsion of normal objects (which is what makes them resist interpenetration) into attraction by switching the orientation of the resulting acceleration, what it results in isn't more force at the boundary (the boundary is a repulsive effect), but interpenetration, which results in force declining to zero as the masses centers are at the same place. (And then switching directions as they cross.)

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they pretty sure it’s different than antimatter? Last I heard we weren’t sure if it has negative gravity or not.

Matter-antimatter annihilation would produce gamma rays that are detectable. I believe there was a study that went looking for that but didn't find anything.

Maybe there's a matter/antimatter Leidenfrost effect?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect

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