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'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

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Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#71
Here's an article describing the theory that sound waves have negative mass. It also describes it in terms of the behavior of fluids.

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2018/08/11/could_p...

Maybe these phenomena are linked, and it's more immediate than cosmology.

via: https://twitter.com/robinhanson

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#72
Looks like the rest of the world is about to catch up with Jean-Pierre Petit's theories about negative masses surrounding positive mass objects like galaxies and holding them together... Even the proposal for the modification of Einstein's theories... Times are a'changin.

It took almost ten years (2007-2017) from JPP being shunned by the scientific community (and the highly politicised French Wikipedia) to others "discovering" the same things he had been saying all along. https://arxiv.org/abs/0712.0067

http://jp-petit.org/papers/cosmo/2018-AstrophysSpaceSci.pdf

You may give yourselves the smallest pat on the back in the universes.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#73
post #50
post #8

Paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.07962.pdf Not a physicist, but my summary of the author's point would be: If you allow for matter with a negative mass and plug it into a n-body simulation. You seem to get what looks like dark matter from first principles. Namely, a halo of non interacting matter around galaxies in just the right "non-cuspy" shape. Their conclusion is that this is worth considering, as almost all ma…

Here's an argument: If you think about it, "mass" actually means two different things. One one hand, there is mass as the "charge" of gravitational interaction, that is, the gravitational field generated by a body is proportional to its mass. Let's call this concept "gravitational mass". On the other hand, you have mass in the sense of "intertial mass", a body's resistance to change of velocity. Although we kinda tak…

What happens if the gravitational mass is the exact negative of the inertial mass for some fraction of matter, though? Does that break GR?

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#74

>The gravity from the positive mass galaxy attracts negative masses from all directions, and as the negative mass fluid comes nearer to the galaxy it in turn exerts a stronger repulsive force onto the galaxy that allows it to spin at higher speeds without flying apart. I don't get this, seems contradictory.

I think what they're saying is that positive mass galaxies attract the negative mass, even as the negative mass repels the positive mass (and all other negative mass). In a stationary system, eventually the two will reach an equilibrium. However, the effects of this in a system in which the positive mass galaxy is spinning is that the negative mass counteracts the forces of inertia, allowing the galaxy to spin at hig…

Wouldn't that allow for a "perpetual motion" setup where a blob of normal mass is in front of a blob of negative mass? The negative mass would push the positive mass forward, and then be attracted to it and follow. What am I misunderstanding?

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#75
post #9

>The gravity from the positive mass galaxy attracts negative masses from all directions, and as the negative mass fluid comes nearer to the galaxy it in turn exerts a stronger repulsive force onto the galaxy that allows it to spin at higher speeds without flying apart. I don't get this, seems contradictory.

Maybe it was modeled as a curvature of space? So positive masses curve space so that everything moves toward them - including light, massless particles, and negative mass. And negative mass repels everything, including other negative mass, by shaping space differently. [Edit: jbay808 has a better explanation below, and negative mass attracts negative mass.] That behavior is described here https://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

Huh, very interesting. Definitely not intuitive by comparison to electric charge.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#76
post #50
post #8

Paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.07962.pdf Not a physicist, but my summary of the author's point would be: If you allow for matter with a negative mass and plug it into a n-body simulation. You seem to get what looks like dark matter from first principles. Namely, a halo of non interacting matter around galaxies in just the right "non-cuspy" shape. Their conclusion is that this is worth considering, as almost all ma…

Here's an argument: If you think about it, "mass" actually means two different things. One one hand, there is mass as the "charge" of gravitational interaction, that is, the gravitational field generated by a body is proportional to its mass. Let's call this concept "gravitational mass". On the other hand, you have mass in the sense of "intertial mass", a body's resistance to change of velocity. Although we kinda tak…

I’m not sure this stands true when you think about fields.

Think of charged particles in a magnetic field and how polarity and and strength of the charge impacts their interaction the strength would do the same thing for both particles while the polarity would mirror their interaction.

I need to read the paper a few more times tho.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#77
post #38
post #20

Sounds a lot like phlogiston, especially since it apparently must be continuously created to matched observable behavior.

Beware the Physical Chem, my son! The laws that arn’t, the constants that vary. Beware the phlogiston, my little one And of the molality be wary. He took his entropy in hand Long time the adiabatic foe he sought So rested he by the delta T And stood awhile in thought. And as in Newtonian Thought he stood The Physical Chem with Beer’s Law Plot, Came Bohring through the orbital wood And took quantum leaps when hot! PV!…

If by recognize you mean that it's a variation/remix of "Jabberwocky"[1], then yes.

The second corresponding verse (so this corresponds to "He took his entropy in hand"), so others can see the resemblance (I chose the second since the first is a bit harder to see):

  He took his vorpal sword in hand:
  Long time the manxome foe he sought—
  So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
  And stood awhile in thought.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabberwocky

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#78
If you put a negative mass and positive mass side by side and release from rest, they will accelerate indefinitely and break conservation of energy. Of course science should be open to any possibility, no matter how strange. But I feel the author understates its strangeness. And requiring negative mass to be continually created makes this theory not all that much "simpler" than the standard dark matter+dark energy.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#79
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's antimatter why isn't it coalesced into antigalaxies that we would be able to see visibly, and is instead diffused as a dark fluid?

It is, we can't see them because they emit dark energy "light". /s

We would see gamma radiation producing events at the interaction interface, even if it is just interstellar gas occasionally colliding.

Not to mention the occasional universe bleaching bursts of energy that comes from an antimatter galaxy colliding with a regular matter galaxy.

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