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Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

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Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#141

Post by blattimwind »

noja wrote: post #25
TulliusCicero wrote: post #18

Kind of have this in Germany, where many businesses are prohibited from being open on Sunday. For example, grocery stores can't be open unless they're at a central train station or airport. In practice, to me it just feels really annoying and limiting. Means I basically have to plan any larger shopping trips for Saturday, even if that doesn't work well for my schedule. I get that they want to make sure workers have e…

Are you German? If not, what do the Germans think of this?

> If not, what do the Germans think of this?

I am a certified German and most people very much enjoy the six day week (de-facto five day week if you're in an office or unionized), though some people inexplicably want to do "sunday shopping".

Sunday having a protected status is actually part of the Grundgesetz (~constitution).

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#142

Post by blattimwind »

detaro wrote: post #70
TulliusCicero wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, just moved here a couple years ago from the states. Most people I know here seem to think it's annoying, but I work at Google, so we got people from all over, I don't think Germans are even a majority of the devs. edit: apparently 61% of Germans think stores should be able to decide themselves whether to open on Sundays: http://m.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/service/einzelhandel-mehrheit...

I'd be curious if and how those numbers change when it is instead "companies should be able to decide themselves if they are open on Sundays". Anecdotally, that question complicates it for quite a few people, despite probably being the fairer change.

It's of course great when people work for you on your day off. Unsurprising, though markedly short-sighted.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#143

Post by msla »

Shades of National Sunday Law!

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/National_Sunday_law

> National Sunday law is a conspiracy theory which alleges that the United States government is on the verge of enacting a national blue law that would make Sunday a day of rest and worship. The theory is based on the idea that the Pope is the Antichrist and the Mark of the Beast is worshipped on Sunday. Sinister forces (read: the Vatican) are conspiring to enact a national Sunday law in the United States, which would be the trigger that unleashes the fulfilment of the prophecies found in the Biblical books of Daniel and Revelation. In addition, this law would outlaw worshipping on Saturday, thus beginning a period of persecution of those who worship on Saturday, or Sabbath.

> This idea originated within Seventh-day Adventism (which considers the Sabbath to be Saturday), and some on the fringes of the SDA church have taken a handful of failed Congressional bills and Papal writings and inflated them into the trigger of the apocalypse. This is quite ironic considering that you would think blue law opposition would come from more secular groups.

I joke, but barely: Making any day a day of rest would play into religious persecution, and fears of same, in a nasty, nasty way.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#144

Post by lozaning »

wyldfire wrote: post #113
mac01021 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I'm mostly ignorant of such practices, what _can_ one do on the sabbath? I assume it's not the case that your entire day is consumed by worship/ceremony/Judaism? Do you spend any time pursuing hobbies? Are there gray areas, where it is open to interpretation whether or not an activity constitutes work? Perhaps you unplug completely and do no computing or telecommunication for the entire sabbath, but is that uni…

Gentile here -- what's not available on the sabbath is probably easier to define. IIRC it mostly consists of things considered to be 'work', but depending on your orthodoxy it is usually the most "active" things that are barred. e.g. cooking w/oven barred, but preparing something to eat is not necessarily barred. Activating a light switch barred, but passively enjoying the light emitted (if it were already on) is not…

I was tasked at one point with certifying some aspects of a line of samsung ovens. One of the features that took the longest to validate was the sabbath mode. Normally the oven would turn off if left untouched for 12 hours. With Sabbath mode activated the oven just stay on in perpetuity until turned off. Had to try it once with it off to make sure it turned off, and once with it one, to ensure it didn't.

This way you could set the oven friday morning, and then use it all day long on the Sabbath, without having done anything that fits their definition of work. Then just turn it off once the Sabbath is over.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#145

Post by palidanx »

mac01021 wrote: post #102
gavman wrote: post #35

As an Orthodox Jew who observes the Sabbath every week, while sometimes finishing up work and preparations beforehand can be stressful at times, there's no feeling like turning off all phones/laptops/etc Friday evening and leaving it all behind. There's a supreme serenity that comes with the knowledge of "I can't do anything about it, so there's no point in worrying". As soon as Sabbath starts I'm totally focused on…

Since I'm mostly ignorant of such practices, what _can_ one do on the sabbath? I assume it's not the case that your entire day is consumed by worship/ceremony/Judaism? Do you spend any time pursuing hobbies? Are there gray areas, where it is open to interpretation whether or not an activity constitutes work? Perhaps you unplug completely and do no computing or telecommunication for the entire sabbath, but is that uni…

As a Seventh-day Adventist (we observe the Sabbath by going to church on Saturday -- but that can lead to an entirely another discussion), I personally view it as a time to disconnect from work, and focus on God, relationships, and the nature around us.

In terms of hobbies, this is interesting a point of debate with many Adventists. Some are more 'conservative' where they won't do anything close to resembling work or hobbies (similar to some Orthodox Jews), and you have the other spectrum of people who more liberal in a sense where they will still do their hobbies (like going to movies, playing sports etc).

I think it is a personal thing to each person, but the overarching themes is really taking a day out of the week to disconnect from the trials of the world and spend a day for a mental reset however you choose to accomplish this.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#146

Post by fwip »

danjc wrote: post #123
krapp wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The freedom of Christianity is that Jesus has done the "good things" on your behalf so that your standing before God is not dependent on your own good works. I can understand and agree with the moral and humanist teachings of Christianity, but the premise of "salvation through faith" always seemed fishy to me, pun only slightly intended. No matter how much good a person does, or how much they try to lead a moral lif…

Hard to know how to respond succinctly here. With respect to our sin deserving eternal judgment consider the majesty of the person being sinned against. For example if I stab my friend in the back to get ahead in business I might face litigation worst case. However if I attempt to overthrow the government I'll be charged with treason and might even face execution depending on where I live. Both scenarios are forms of…

I feel like stabbing is usually a criminal act.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#147

Post by munk-a »

gavman wrote: post #35

As an Orthodox Jew who observes the Sabbath every week, while sometimes finishing up work and preparations beforehand can be stressful at times, there's no feeling like turning off all phones/laptops/etc Friday evening and leaving it all behind. There's a supreme serenity that comes with the knowledge of "I can't do anything about it, so there's no point in worrying". As soon as Sabbath starts I'm totally focused on…

I very strongly object to this approach... but I don't disagree with the intent. In the modern world people tend to have absolutely terrible work/life balance, we need to help fix that and it will take a really strong effort. In japan there are already programs and incentives setup to help people avoid working themselves to death but in America there's this stupid romance surrounding the idea of working over time and an expectation that if 100 hours of labour is how much you need to do to keep a roof over your head then you better put your head down and do it.

I'm not certain how we fix this but we need to make it okay to step away from work, for vacations... and to let the mind relax and recharge over weekends. We need to disallow the ability to hire yourself out for 24 hour on call - nobody actually needs to do that, your company could just hire more people and spread that responsibility around. And, lastly, we need to kill overtime dead, it's stupid, it hurts productivity, it hurts your body, it's never efficient... If your workday lasts for more than ten hours realize that a nice meal, some downtime and a good night's sleep will make you more efficient and make sure your boss knows that as well.

But, to do this, we don't need to revive a religious holiday, we need to empower people to feel like they can say no and disconnect from work and let them recover their leisure time. And just to be clear, it is theoretically possible that I could get a phone call at any hour to deal with a critical issue, but I don't watch anything when I'm off the clock, I don't let worrying enter my mind.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#148

Post by tspike »

munk-a wrote: post #147
gavman wrote: post #35

As an Orthodox Jew who observes the Sabbath every week, while sometimes finishing up work and preparations beforehand can be stressful at times, there's no feeling like turning off all phones/laptops/etc Friday evening and leaving it all behind. There's a supreme serenity that comes with the knowledge of "I can't do anything about it, so there's no point in worrying". As soon as Sabbath starts I'm totally focused on…

I very strongly object to this approach... but I don't disagree with the intent. In the modern world people tend to have absolutely terrible work/life balance, we need to help fix that and it will take a really strong effort. In japan there are already programs and incentives setup to help people avoid working themselves to death but in America there's this stupid romance surrounding the idea of working over time and…

It's kind of the same thing, it's just the terminology that changes. What is "sacred" if not something to be respected. I am not religious, but I consider my disconnect time sacred.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#149

Post by saudioger »

throwaway715875 wrote: post #86
gavman wrote: post #35

As an Orthodox Jew who observes the Sabbath every week, while sometimes finishing up work and preparations beforehand can be stressful at times, there's no feeling like turning off all phones/laptops/etc Friday evening and leaving it all behind. There's a supreme serenity that comes with the knowledge of "I can't do anything about it, so there's no point in worrying". As soon as Sabbath starts I'm totally focused on…

I'm Jewish but not religious anymore, and I know a lot of people that keep Shabbat that talk like this. Frankly, I don't buy it. If we have a problem with detaching from technology, then, stopping all usage of it only one day a week is maybe 90% as unhealthy. It would be like saying you have a healthy relationship with smoking because you don't smoke at all for one day a week, but after that you can chain smoke 24/6.…

Surely chain smoking for 6 days is healthier than chain smoking for 7
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