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Berlin Google Campus occupied

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Re: Berlin Google Campus occupied

#141

Post by erentz »

titzer wrote: post #52
TulliusCicero wrote: post #14

> New tech companies are driving the rents up in the area higher and higher. The endpoint of this process can be seen in San Francisco, which once must have been a halfway livable city. This is more the fault of NIMBYs and supply&demand-denialists who work hard to prevent new housing from going up. Yes, tech companies brought the demand because of good jobs, but last I checked, we wanted companies to offer high payin…

> This is more the fault of NIMBYs and supply&demand-denialists I don't think you quite grasp the effects of a massive influx of hundreds to thousands of new individuals making $150k-250k. It increases rent across the board, which impacts all the people in an area. Sure, it might create a few new jobs for baristas and shopkeepers, a few bartenders and waitresses. But ultimately it just leads to gentrification and pri…

Berlin was having this problem before Google’s campus showed up.

The fact is the war ended. Berlin became the capital of a very large and wealthy country. If Berliners wanted to avoid displacing people they needed to start building lots of houses. And they needed to start a while ago because building houses takes time. But they NIMBY’d against the perceived “gentrification” of new houses so now they’re behind.

Avoiding the problem for longer by blaming tech companies isn’t going to somehow put the genie back in the bottle. Accept Berlin has changed and build houses.

Re: Berlin Google Campus occupied

#142

Post by brewdad »

checkyoursudo wrote: post #79
usrusr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of highrise developments is what makes those areas attractive in the first place. Berlin has plenty highrise residential, yet Google and the like are decidedly avoiding those areas. Converting more of the cityscape into the kind of area where neither Google nor the protestors would want to be would make the situation worse, not better. Also, it's quite possible that you widely underestimate the existing density,…

> Lack of highrise developments is what makes those areas attractive in the first place. Why? Aesthetics? Google-type people don't want to live in high-rises? I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they aren't willing even to live near high-rises. That's a new one to me.

In the neighborhoods of Portland, residents are absolutely flipping out over mid-rise developments.

In many areas, single family homes on corner lots are being torn down and replaced by 3-4 story apartment buildings. Neighborhood associations are very much up in arms against these developments that alter the "character of the neighborhood". Often these new buildings are shorter than the trees around them, but still they are considered "out of place".

Re: Berlin Google Campus occupied

#143

Post by titzer »

ajross wrote: post #87
titzer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is more the fault of NIMBYs and supply&demand-denialists I don't think you quite grasp the effects of a massive influx of hundreds to thousands of new individuals making $150k-250k. It increases rent across the board, which impacts all the people in an area. Sure, it might create a few new jobs for baristas and shopkeepers, a few bartenders and waitresses. But ultimately it just leads to gentrification and pri…

Honest question: where would you prefer to put those thousands of individuals making $150-250k? I mean, they have to work somewhere, right? And they want to live in big, vibrant metropolitain areas for the same reason that YOU want to live in those areas (which is why you're upset about the rent in the first place). Is there really a solution in your head where high-paid geeks are going to move to Boise or Zagreb or…

> Honest question: where would you prefer to put those thousands of individuals making $150-250k?

Well, tech companies, if anybody, should have figured out telecommuting, but they don't because of policies directly from the top. But failing that, tech giants are giant because they want to be giant and have a tendency to want to gobble up smaller companies. A less sharp growth rate and a more "small business-oriented" marketplace would soften the drastic swings brought by the giants throwing their weight around. But this is not what the market rewards, so you get consolidation, massive imbalances, and unsustainable growth.

Housing is on the forefront, but society has a secret grudge against the tech boom, for good reason, and it's starting to show. I expect this is just the first of several waves of backlash.

Re: Berlin Google Campus occupied

#144

Post by yock »

Apocryphon wrote: post #111
yock wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't illegal to be hated, at least not yet. You seem awfully eager to coerce your neighbors into behaving in a way consistent with your personal values.

Conformity is a means of social cohesion, yes.

Why do you value that over your individuality?

Re: Berlin Google Campus occupied

#145

Post by Xylakant »

cbnotfromthere wrote: post #95
Xylakant wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? I remember at least three demos that were happening down the street from our office because people had to move out in the last few years. And eminent domain is not the only way to force people to move. Renovate the building, you may now raise the rent so people can't afford it. No eminent domain, people were still forced to move.

"And eminent domain is not the only way to force people to move. Renovate the building, you may now raise the rent so people can't afford it. No eminent domain, people were still forced to move." So it's not just fake news from you, it's Communist fake news. Because you claim that market transactions are FORCED. You have the right to your own opinions, but you don't have the right to your own facts. You claimed FALSE…

If acknowledging that force can take other forms than physical or legal restraint and that not all market interactions are equal and necessarily borne of free will is now a communist position, then yeah, I’m a communist now. Wouldn’t have expected that to happen, but life is full of surprises.

Re: Berlin Google Campus occupied

#146

Post by mosdl »

seucs wrote: post #101
evanlivingston wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or conversely, look at Portland for an example a place where keeping up with housing demand has not translated into preserving a quantity of affordable housing. Abstracted supply and demand alone does not result in ensuring housing at various price points

Or Vancouver. Singapore and Vienna is really a counter argument more than anything else. These are places were the government have significant control over, and are essentially undermining, the housing market. This isn't changing zoning a little bit. In Singapore the government acquired most of the land. And Austria is spending the equivalent of a defense budget each year on housing subsidies alone.

Except Vienna housing keeps getting more expensive as there isn't much stock available.

Re: Berlin Google Campus occupied

#147

Post by jupp0r »

Apocryphon wrote: post #134
ajross wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are good answers. But they're ones of housing policy and urban planning, not "#FuckOffGoogle", which serves literally no one.

Telling angry people that they're irrational and not entitled to their anger is not a good answer, either.

It's not like Google can influence Berlin zoning laws to build more apartments ...

Re: Berlin Google Campus occupied

#148

Post by Apocryphon »

yock wrote: post #144
Apocryphon wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conformity is a means of social cohesion, yes.

Why do you value that over your individuality?

Conformity is a rational method that society uses to maintain order. It shouldn't be surprising. That's an objective observation and my own values are irrelevant to it.

Re: Berlin Google Campus occupied

#149

Post by jrockway »

pixl97 wrote: post #114
jrockway wrote: post #68

The whole protesting thing seems pretty tame these days. They list demands, but don't follow up with any threat? Why would anyone take the demands seriously?

Threaten the panopticon police state and they will label you a terrorist. Good luck getting work after that. Hopefully you'll avoid a long prison sentence too.

With that world view, why make demands, though? Seems like it's just attracting unnecessary scrutiny from the "panopticon police state" without accomplishing anything.

Re: Berlin Google Campus occupied

#150

Post by hobofan »

Pretty interesting that Google is protested that much, while there are no actions of any comparable size against Zalando. Zalando also is a "big tech firm", and it already has and continues to change Berlin in exactly the way it is claimed of Google, on a much larger scale than Google will in the foreseeable future (since they already have their German HQ in Hamburg).
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