Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#141

Post by throwawaymath » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:52 PM UTC

shawn wrote: post #132

throwawaymath wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you argue that it's not worth "anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%" if there are so many firms willing to pay it? The idea of the fees is not to cover the costs of doing business, it's to turn a (ideally significant) profit. It sounds like your expectation is that a company would not charge as much as the market will accept for a unique product. How much it costs to simply handle e.g. payment processing has rela…

The inverse question is equally interesting: In a monopoly, how do you determine when to put a stop to it? It's a tough question.

I don't agree with you that Apple or Google are monopolies. I also don't see that what they're doing is anti-competitive.

I expect that will be a pretty controversial opinion, but I'm just being honest.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#142

Post by TylerE » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:53 PM UTC

throwaway34241 wrote: post #108

Marsymars wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of the terrible search, they also show ads. Which, if search was good, would be explicitly worse than actual search results.

This. This is why how Steam operates is 10x better than the mobile app stores. A 30% fee for getting your app in front of the users who might buy it is one thing. Steam isn't perfect, but they've set up their economic model where they are rewarded for doing this, which is good for both developers and users. This involves personal recommendations, maybe third party curation features, search etc. If you have an ad-base…

Steam has been sliding rapidly into hell for years. So much crap/asset flips.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#143

Post by emsy » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:53 PM UTC

throwawaymath wrote: post #129

ksec wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the scale Apple operate None of what you stated above is worth anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%. And for the last few points, they are covered by the Hardware cost which in Apple case cover the software as well. ( Where Windows and Android are covered by other means ) And I don't think you are actually disagreeing with your parents at all. Because all the services they provided and as you have listed are now consi…

How can you argue that it's not worth "anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%" if there are so many firms willing to pay it? The idea of the fees is not to cover the costs of doing business, it's to turn a (ideally significant) profit. It sounds like your expectation is that a company would not charge as much as the market will accept for a unique product. How much it costs to simply handle e.g. payment processing has rela…

Ideally profits should be incentives for a good service. Instead the profits are a result of the lack of competition because it‘s impossible in iOS‘ case and virtually impossible in Android’s case to compete.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#144

Post by jarjoura » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #78

makecheck wrote: post #32

The 30% cut would have been reasonable after all this time if the platforms were doing anything useful with the money. Instead, we got: - Store APIs that to this day are stupidly complex to get right in all cases, making you wonder why it’s so hard - No support for very common, decades-old pricing schemes like “free demo, then buy” (except through convoluted means) - Stagnant app store designs (esp. Mac, for YEARS) -…

The iOS App Store design is pretty awesome actually. It got a total design revamp last year in iOS 11 [1], and it's coming to macOS Mojave in a couple of months, so to claim the design is stagnant is incorrect. It's fluid, and has great use of typography, spacing and colors. I don't see how it is criticize the design of it, the design is the best part. The missing features (like demo versions not being possible) etc…

Have you actually found any new apps to download through Apple's new News style storefront? Just a cursory ping around my office has resulted in only 1 person installing an app through it.

It's quite frankly an obnoxious, Apple has to control everything, replacement for all of the other various startups who were creating marketing channels for developers to reach new users.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#145

Post by ballenf » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

This article ignores that Apple nor Google charge a tax on ad revenue in apps, leading to the perverse outcome we have where there is an inexorable pressure to monetize via ads even in paid apps.

I really would really like to see the tax lowered, but expanded to include all advertising revenue, with the idea that the "power to tax is the power to kill".

Small apps will rebel forcefully and understandably from this idea, but I don't think it will really harm them in the long run.

Unfortunately, the idea is fundamentally flawed and couldn't work with regard to apps that run their own ad network like Facebook, Amazon or maybe Netflix eventually. Those companies probably don't currently track revenue on any basis that would allow allocation in any way suitable for application of such a tax.

But if Apple had done this originally, I think we would be in a very different world app-wise. And a better one.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#146

Post by sonnyblarney » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

The limitation that Apple imposes whereby people can't really sideload or download elsewhere is even more problematic.

The 30% tax is one thing - but grey, inconclusive, inconsistent and possibly nefarious decisions made as to 'what can stay and what cannot' in the AppStore is even worse.

It's tantamount to a kind of politico/economic censorship in the name of security.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#147

Post by bovine3dom » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

earenndil wrote: post #85

rlanday wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple adds no value there Other than inventing the modern phone, writing the operating system and developer tools, running the store, manufacturing the phones people are consuming Amazon's product on and convincing people to buy them...you can argue about what's "fair," but Apple's certainly adding value.

All of those except 'running the store' are value paid for in the purchase of the phone, not the software on it.

Money is fungible. I would be very surprised if Apple didn't regard revenue from the App Store as partially due to their investment in the iPhone.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#148

Post by throwawaymath » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #137

throwawaymath wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the 30% fee is reasonable because it provides access to Apple's user base. It's not as though they're specifically obligated to earmark that money to improve the app store itself. The things you're complaining about are valid criticisms, but I don't think the have anything to do with whether or not the fee is appropriate. In return for 30%, Apple develops and maintains a centralized software distributio…

There's a term that exists specifically to define things like "provides access to Apple's user base". It's called "rent-seeking".

You're stating that as though it's an argument, but I honestly don't follow the point you're trying to make. Under the rent-seeking analogy, yes, Apple built a vast and lucrative apartment complex. Are you saying it's unreasonable to charge a high fee to allow someone to solicit to the people living in that complex on the property it owns and developed?

I get the sense we're not going to be able to come to an understanding here. Based on the way you used that terminology we likely have an axiomatic disagreement.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#149

Post by sonnyblarney » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:58 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #113

mywittyname wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes sense in retail. The operating costs associated with retail are more than twice that of a pure digital store. Digital stores don't need to worry about theft, inventory, logistics, opportunity costs of floor space, bad returns, etc. I bet Apple's entire online operation cost less to run than all of the Walmarts in New Jersey. Plus, you can do cool things like individualize what's offered to customers in a d…

Justifying price you charge for something based solely on cost, isn't the way that capitalism works. Price is purely a function of supply and demand. If app makers decide that it's not worth the 30% cut that Apple charges to reach the But realistically, the developers who are making the most money are the ones doing in app purchases for coins, loot boxes, etc. It's not exactly costing them anything to "produce" more…

No, justifying price based on cost is usually valid because of real competitive pressures in the world. Very few things deviate too far from underlying costs. Apple is a rare special case that has a lot of market power and brand premium.

Retail stores take on massive working capital and inventory costs. Of course their 'cut' is going to be higher, and it will be the same in every other retail chain because of the similar underlying economics.

If 'digital app stores' were commoditized, then the 30% would be more like 3% due to the nature of competition.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#150

Post by tw04 » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:58 PM UTC

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

If every app I downloaded were several to several 10s of gigabytes of data, I might be more inclined to cut them some slack. 30% on a 5MB download is pretty tough to justify. The cost of storing and transferring that file is a rounding error.